How far out of shape do you have to be for that to happen?

I have no formal upset training, and do not have any experience with spins other than theory. I just wonder how easily it happens... It makes me nervous flying low patterns but I fee like it is more my ignorance and lack of first hand experience that makes me feel that way.

Is it less common among TW pilots as we are more geared toward staying ahead of the airplane? Does the airplane tell you it doesn't like it and give you a chance to fix it before you are toast?

Thanks

Like many things in aviation, the answer to your question is "It depends".

You can set up for a stall in many airplanes and the plane will do everything it can to let you know it's not happy.

But there are also scenarios you can work your way into that may cause a plane to depart controlled flight with virtually no warning.

In addition, each aircraft type presents somewhat different precursor "warnings" of an impending stall. Different examples of the same type aircraft may be rigged different thus presenting different characteristics.

As to spins, a spin is an aggravated stall. Don't stall and you won't spin. Don't aggravate a stall and it shouldn't spin.

I highly recommend upset recovery training for any pilot.

MTV

It is helpful to have an instructor who is very comfortable with spins work with you until you are comfortable with them. Slow flight first so it is more like an inadvertent spin.

Attempting to high a pitch attitude on takeoff is the big causal factor. Just over the obstacles is most energy efficient. Staying in low ground effect until maneuvering speed is achieved gives us zoom reserve in the form of airspeed in addition to what excess engine thrust for climb we have, if any.

In the pattern, neither level or climbing turns are necessary. The airplane doesn't like to climb, at slow speed, and turn. Climb wings level and then level the nose or even descend in the turn. There is a lot of space below and it gives gravity thrust.

Give way to other aircraft when using all available energy because most don't expect it. But why fly dangerously just to save a little time.

Simple answer, is quit wondering, and go get spin, or unusual attitude training, Then go out in your airplane and spin it till you puke. Experiment with bank angle and cross control till you find the envelope of your particular aircraft falls out of the envelope. Once you do that, you can live fear free.

Sidewinder wrote:Simple answer, is quit wondering, and go get spin, or unusual attitude training, Then go out in your airplane and spin it till you puke. Experiment with bank angle and cross control till you find the envelope of your particular aircraft falls out of the envelope. Once you do that, you can live fear free.

I agree, with one caveat: Make absolutely certain that YOUR aircraft is APPROVED for spins. Most production aircraft are NOT approved for spins. Almost none are approved for spins in the Normal category, and those that are approved for spins in the Utility category typically have some pretty restrictive weight and balance restrictions for spinning. Example is the Super Cub, which can only be spun in the Utility Category. That limits max weight to 1500 pounds, and a forward CG....impossible to get there with two aboard in virtually all cases I'm aware of.

DO NOT spin an airplane that hasn't been flight tested and certified for spins. Note that virtually all (there are exceptions) production aircraft were tested in one turn spins. That is not a developed spin, and those aircraft, while they passed the one turn criteria, may become unrecoverable after only one more turn in a spin.

Go to an instructor who has a well thought out training syllabus, and a spin approved airplane and get some good upset recovery training. Rich Stowell has the best program in the country: http://www.richstowell.com/

Rich's web site also has a LOT of good information on the subject, and his books are absolute gems of information on stall/spin phenomena. Buy one or both of his books at least if you can't go fly with him....

MTV

+1 for Rich Stowell.

I was already a CFII when I took a basic aerobatics course some 35-36 years ago. The difference in my comfort level, especially training students (whose sole purpose in life sometimes seems to be to kill both the student and the instructor), was significant. And I can say without fear of contradiction that those 9.8 hours of training, as abbreviated as it was, saved my life on more than one occasion. So I'd recommend that to anyone, newbie or experienced pilot alike.

But basic spin training, which wouldn't take very much time at all, would certainly add to your confidence. It can be done in the average 150/152 and 172 (utility category only); although 172s are reluctant to spin, they can be made to spin with a little power at the inception.

Spins are a legitimate concern, but nothing to fear. As Mike said, an airplane won't spin if it doesn't first stall. Most of the airplanes we fly give plenty of warning before stalling, and most of them are also pretty docile when they do stall. Most are also pretty reluctant to spin--even intentional spins aren't easy to enter. The oft described "stall/spin scenario from base to final" really takes some ham-handed piloting to accomplish. First you have to stall the airplane, and second it must be way out of coordinated flight.

In olden times, flight instructor applicants had to become proficient in spin recovery, because it was a mandatory test item during the checkride--show up in a non-approved aircraft, and you didn't pass the checkride. Now all that is necessary is a logbook entry signed by another instructor who attests that the pilot has been adequately trained in spins and spin recovery, so it's not uncommon for a flight instructor applicant to arrive for the checkride in an airplane not approved for spins.

So go do it! It's not that hard, and it'll do away with the fear you've expressed.

Here's a little story to encourage you: my instrument student wanted to deliver his airplane to Casper for avionics work and asked me to follow him from Laramie to Casper in a rental 172, so that I could teach him spins on the way home. The 172 was scheduled for a 7 p.m. night flight. After awhile, I noticed that he was flying it at a much reduced power setting, so that we were putting along at maybe 85 mph. I asked him why, and he said that he'd begun to regret asking me to teach him spins out of fear, and he figured that if we took too long to get back, there wouldn't be time. I looked at my watch, told him that we still had plenty of time.

So we got off the airway a few miles, cleared the area, and I demo'd a 2 turn spin and recovery to him. As we climbed back to altitude, he commented that it wasn't as bad as he expected. I talked him through the next one, just a one turn spin. His grin told me everything. He did a few more, perhaps 3 or 4 (I don't recall), both left and right. Then we flew on to Laramie, landing in plenty of time for the next renter.

As we taxied in, he thanked me, and he said that his fear of spins was gone completely, because now he knew what they were, and what they weren't.

Cary

Minor exception maybe - Recently read of AD to stop spinning 150-152s unless rudder stop is "fixed."
No time this am to look it up. Sorry Chris C
PS: Guess I was lucky all those years!

wannabe wrote:Minor exception maybe - Recently read of AD to stop spinning 150-152s unless rudder stop is "fixed."
No time this am to look it up. Sorry Chris C
PS: Guess I was luck all those years!

There was such an AD, but since it was a mandatory, do it now sort of AD issued several years ago, it should have been accomplished with any 150/152 flying today.

Cary

There are caveats to every statement, and many need not be mentioned here, given that many who reach this level, and even students are well aware of the limitations set out in the manuals of their particular aircraft. Hopefully some remnants of common sense exist that say you don't load the wife, kids, dog and baggage with full fuel and go out and practice spins.. there's Darwin awards for that. We as pilots SHOULD be aware of this already.

Were not talking high performance aircraft here. It is quite obvious that MOST aircraft that people use for back-country flying are of the traditional high wing monoplane design, being Cessna, Cub or Cub Clone. This traditional design is very capable of recovering from spins using the cliché' method. Fortunately several older models are placarded for approved spins with the obvious limitations. Newer Cub designs such as the Husky are not, not because it locks into a spin and cannot be recovered. It's because, what manufacturer in their right mind in a world of frivolous litigation would approve spins in their machines, they would have to have multiple cranial screws loose. Selling airplanes is a risky business, why make it more so
.
Comprehensive spin and unusual attitude training is a valuable investment, It simply makes you a better pilot and a safer one. I would have no problem then going out and exploring the envelope of any of the traditional high wing monoplanes, screw the placards, Study the spin tests for certification of the particular model, use common sense, single person 1'2 tanks and Perhaps a bit of ballast in the baggage... yes, secure it.. especially with tandem ships. DO a CG calculation. Too far forward and it may be very difficult to get a stall break, Limit to incipient or go to one turn and no more.

Accelerated, departure and over rudder turn stalls are far more exiting to practice, there’s usually no incipient stage to those and can upset into a full blown spin faster than you can say shit. It’s probably prudent to restrict those to utility, spin approved and aerobatic types 150 or Citabria at the least.
Learn all aspects of your particular aircrafts envelope. It will make your flying more pleasurable.

1. another vote for Rich Stowell. if you can't swing it with him (as was my case), go with CP aviation in santa paula, california. they run an excellent outfit from my experience. i was with a younger instructor, and he was absolutely top notch. ABSOLUTELY recommend it. under $1000, so it's not anything financially exorbitant.
2. hmmm...i think that #1 is actually all i have. i'm a complete greenhorn. all the sages here have wonderful knowledge to share, though...

Thanks for the responses, Phil sent me a great video showing it in action.

I haven't had the wx or much time to do any real maneuvering in my Maule. I have around 20 hours or so in it but can't wait to start to figure it out.

Spin training is good: Not stalling the wing is INFINITELY better.

Spin training is great fun and well worth the time and money even if only for the thrill, but the best time to do it is in the first week of flight school. If I'd done a day of spin training before I started my private ticket all those stalls would have been a lot more educational and a lot less stressful than they were.

In a hour you can recover spins to a fairly close compass heading, and the only problem with doing a 14-turn spin is the time to climb back up and do it again. There is really nothing to them providing you have a suitable aircraft and enough sky below you. I find them strangely relaxing...sort of like being on a swing.

But I really don't see how spin recovery training, fun as it is, increases pilot safety in any meaningful way unless it gives you the confidence to go out and practice aggressive stalls (not spins) on a more regular basis. Most people have no reason to fly close to a stall unless they're also close to the ground, and if you're close enough to the ground to be flying at an airspeed where a stall is possible, you're much too close to recover from a spin.

While I have no intention of finding out, I'm pretty sure that my airplane with a load in it won't come out of a spin with anything like the control inputs and alacrity I've experienced in spin training, if at all. With no confidence that I can recover from a spin while hauling a load, I don't practice stalls in that configuration, either. I could go out and practice perfectly coordinated straight-ahead stalls with a load, but that's not going to teach me much of value. It's the stalls in a turn, maybe a balls' width out of coordination that get us. My unloaded stall training still has some value, but I really don't know how my airplane will react to a uncoordinated stall while hauling my normal load, and I don't anticipate finding out, regardless of my altitude or prior spin training.

In other words, spin training doesn't make you spin-proof, and if you've inadvertently stalled the wing close to the ground, recovery might not be possible. So don't do it!

Worth watching....

https://youtu.be/urn5cdKWPWs

As an ag pilot, low slow and heavy, I agree with Hammer. I avoid the stall at all costs. I'm also very conscious of keeping the ball centred through all manoeuvres. I can say that the whole wing not able to stall at 0g thing from the video has saved my ass on more than one occasion.

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51C170 wrote:Worth watching....

https://youtu.be/urn5cdKWPWs

As an ag pilot, low slow and heavy, I agree with Hammer. I avoid the stall at all costs. I'm also very conscious of keeping the ball centred through all manoeuvres. I can say that the whole wing not able to stall at 0g thing from the video has saved my ass on more than one occasion.

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That's the one Phil sent me, I've watched it 3 or 4 times in the last couple days.

It seems a lot like what Contact teaches - if you are not pulling on it then there shouldn't be much load on the wing. My Maule has a very gentle stall and the controls turn to mush before it does. It seems it would be hard to fly an approach let alone turning slow enough to stall it.

I'd love to know how many lives that video has saved over the years. It's certainly saved mine. I made every new pilot I was involved in training or mentoring watch it.

When ever I get on a new type or one I haven't flown much in a while( for ag or playing in, not so much for going a to b) as well as doing stalls and steep turns and the like for familiarisation, I fly it as slow as I possibly can without losing altitude. In other words get familiar with that edge of the envelope just before the stall. Just to see how it looks and feels. I'll try turning each way and just generally loaf about, keeping in balance at all times. I believe this to be as important if not more important than doing stalls. One thing that really stands out when doing this is how much more right rudder is needed as you slow down and how much rudder to put in and when as you roll in and out of turns to keep that ball centred. I believe that a lot of stall/ spin situations develop because of a lack of right rudder input as speed decreases. Think about circling over something lo and slow, eyes outside, you get too slow and don't notice as the ball starts to drift out and bam you've flipped on your lid with no room to recover.

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I very much agree with the "Turn Smart " video. The little time saved in an extreme wingover is not worth the danger and stress. Bear in mind he is talking from both high altitude acrobatic point of view and Ag point of view. I don't remember ever having time to look at the ball while spraying. We need to be able to match the correct rate of nose movement with the angle of bank. Also the airplane talks to us when out of trim.

So, I've been nurturing this thought. As one of those retarded, but rememberable phrases, how about "If the ball is high, you're going to die." It seems like it has potential to help folks sort out a skid versus slip. Or am I thinking wrong?

Hammer wrote:Spin training is good: Not stalling the wing is INFINITELY better.

Spin training is great fun and well worth the time and money even if only for the thrill, but the best time to do it is in the first week of flight school. If I'd done a day of spin training before I started my private ticket all those stalls would have been a lot more educational and a lot less stressful than they were.

In a hour you can recover spins to a fairly close compass heading, and the only problem with doing a 14-turn spin is the time to climb back up and do it again. There is really nothing to them providing you have a suitable aircraft and enough sky below you. I find them strangely relaxing...sort of like being on a swing.

But I really don't see how spin recovery training, fun as it is, increases pilot safety in any meaningful way unless it gives you the confidence to go out and practice aggressive stalls (not spins) on a more regular basis. Most people have no reason to fly close to a stall unless they're also close to the ground, and if you're close enough to the ground to be flying at an airspeed where a stall is possible, you're much too close to recover from a spin.

While I have no intention of finding out, I'm pretty sure that my airplane with a load in it won't come out of a spin with anything like the control inputs and alacrity I've experienced in spin training, if at all. With no confidence that I can recover from a spin while hauling a load, I don't practice stalls in that configuration, either. I could go out and practice perfectly coordinated straight-ahead stalls with a load, but that's not going to teach me much of value. It's the stalls in a turn, maybe a balls' width out of coordination that get us. My unloaded stall training still has some value, but I really don't know how my airplane will react to a uncoordinated stall while hauling my normal load, and I don't anticipate finding out, regardless of my altitude or prior spin training.

In other words, spin training doesn't make you spin-proof, and if you've inadvertently stalled the wing close to the ground, recovery might not be possible. So don't do it!

I was not advocating for "spin training", though it's not a bad idea.

What I WAS advocating for, and what Rich Stowell teaches, is "Upset Recovery training" or in Rich Stowell's lexicon, "Emergency Manuever Training or EMT".

AG operators do a lot of turning, but typically these turns are ~ 180 degrees or so. And the AG pilot typically isn't focused on something on the ground....other than as necessary to position for the next swath. That video is right on for that world.

But circling flight can take on some additional dimensions, and add significantly to the risk factor of low level flight.

If you really believe you will always precisely control your aircraft while looking at things on the ground, you MAY be fooling yourself. I've lost some pilot friends who were VERY experienced pilots in this game. And the scenario is generally the same.....circling flight, looking at something on the ground.

My theory is that many of these accidents are the result of a combination of aerodynamic factors, one of which is self induced wing tip vortices. Combine a vortex encounter with a high AOA and slightly different AOA on each wing, and you have a recipe for a stall break that will be abrupt and totally without warning.

That's what Rich's program is about, as well as turning safe, which is just as important and which the turn safe video does a good job of explaining.

That said, you can learn a lot about theory from a video, but to quote Wilbut Wright: "If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial."

Good advice.

MTV

Flyingzebra,

It depends on how high you are and whether the nose is down, unloading the wing and providing gravity thrust, or not. The problem with flight below 500' AGL is that pilots often don't consider and use the vertical space available. Indoctrination in maintaining altitude is too strong. I have spent many a day spraying without ever gaining more that 100' altitude. 100' is a lot more vertical space than many think.

The ball is out low in the forward or side slip. The ball can be out high in a skid to miss an obstruction without putting a wing into the ground. Both work if the nose is down. The wings level skidding, or rudder turn, in low ground effect is also possible and useful to miss things if maneuvering speed is maintained.

It's not that coordination is over rated. The lack of it in airplanes that only partially address adverse yaw with wing engineering, frieze ailerons, and such, is problematic. They actually turn the way we bank, even without rudder. This sloppy shallow turn is just not safe in maneuvering flight. So coordination is not over rated, it is just not always the safest technique.

MTV,

Energy management (ground effect zoom reserve, yo yos trading airspeed for altitude and altitude for airspeed, always letting the nose go down naturally in the turn, and working crosswind back and forth from the downwind side of the field to the upwind side) give crop dusters and air to ground gunnery pilots a tremendous advantage over those who must circle low level. That is why I have always wondered why those who hunt or count animals by air don't make use of air to ground gunnery and crop duster tactics and techniques.

Contact