I've been going though my survival kits in spring time preparation. And revisted some survival gear questions.

Here's one of the questions:

How to stay warm when in a survival situation?

Ideally you would be able to get the sleeping bag out of the back of the plane. But what if your stuck with what's in your vest?
Those space blankets are better than nothing, but won't keep you warm, just a bit less cold. I know and do dress for the weather, but spring time here has the days in the high 50s followed by nights in the 20s, and it's a bit hard dressing for that, even with layers.
One should be able get a fire going and get some decent heat from that. Is there anything that would fit in a vest that would help in staying warm? I'm not expecting comfort-warm, more perventing-hypothermia/shock-and-help-boost-moral-warm.

Would like to hear your input on this.

Before Bics I always carried waterproof match container and knife in my pocket. I cut the wet bark off limbs. Cedar or pine works wet because of the oil. Fire is very important. Read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London.

Read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London.

Doesn’t he die at the end because he doesn’t do it right?

And our own member than spent an unplanned night on a glacier recently after getting stuck. Little gear and no fire, but he thawed out enough to fly out the next day (weather gods were smiling).

Once had three days of afternoon survival training by a fellow who followed Sparky Imeson's flying part of the class: Skip Stoffel- He went on to run an international outfit. Forget the name of the Organization but Just giggle "Skip Stoffel" and it should get you to a home page of all you should ever need.

Most important - as with flying - is to PRACTICE in the field.
Add something to read.

Chris C

There are some compact bivy sacks made from heavy duty space-blanket material that are small enough to fit in a vest. They're windproof, waterproof, and provide a reasonable amount of warmth, providing you're not loosing it all to the ground by laying down.

SOL makes one, and I'm sure other companies do, too. I cary a military surplus version that's vacuum packed and is a bit bigger than an external hard drive. I think it's one of the most important things in my vest, as it provides instant shelter to evaluate and plan...not just something to sleep in.

Fire is a far better option for a long night out, but there's no guarantee there will be wood to burn or that you'll be in any sort of condition to collect it.

I hate sleeping cold, and these survival bivy's are less than comfortable, but they're probably the best bet for a vest.

Another thing you can do is pack a merino wool or capaline undershirt in your vest. In the event of a All-You-Have-Is-Your-Vest situation, you're likely going to be pretty sweaty. Being able to change your sweat-soaked undershirt for a dry one makes a HUGE difference in maintaining body temp.

Unless it's mid summer I fly in knee-high waterproof overboots...like short fishing waders. They fasten at the top, and I fill the excess space around my legs with winter weight socks, gloves, hat, neck gator, micro-light rain/wind shell... stuff I want with me, but don't want to wear when it's fifty-degrees at the hangar.

First, if you are in flight, you can actually wear quite a few layers and still be comforatable. Turn the heater off.....you shouldn’t need it, except for defrost maybe.

Now, you land and get out to hike, and you remove some layers, which are replaced when you get back in the plane.

I realize that night temps can be substantially cooler than days. I carry three different means to start a fire, on my person. Get a good fire going, rig a space blanket as a reflector/shelter half, and you should do fine. You may not get a good nights sleep, but you’ll survive.

Don’t forget gloves, by the way.....hands are essential tools for survival.

MTV

Staying warm when things are less than ideal. (With lot's of thread drift)

Seems like a simple question that must have a simple answer. But the more I thought about it the more complex it got. For instance where are we flying, lower 48, Canada or Alaska? Makes a big difference. What season of the year? Makes a big difference, especially when coupled with the location. How long before we are likely to be rescued? In Alaska I plan on 4-days and I've got multiple redundant "come and get me and bring pizza" technology with me.

And what is "less than ideal"? Did we mis-judge our landing and put our plane on its back? If so most likely we aren't hurt much if at all so probably have access to everything in the plane. Did we crash in such a manner that we are severely injured? If so we are probably staying right where we are, in the seat in the plane, in which case we probably need easy access to our first aid kit and water as well. Or did the plane catch on fire during the crash and we somehow managed to get out before we burned up? In which case we already have a fire started, all we need do is provide continual sources of fuel.

Then I found myself wondering what the percentage chance (likelihood) is that we would ever find ourselves in a situation where we only had what was in our vest and nothing else. Probably much more likely for a floatplane pilot then a wheel plane pilot. Now I do personally know of one situation and the pilot who crashed, who managed to get out of the plane, and the plane burnt up entirely. But he tried to take off at a muni airport and lost power. Taxied back to the end of the runway, and tried again. Right after takeoff he lost power again and tried to land on the highway that was perpendicular to the end of the runway. Stalled it right above the highway and hit hard. Why did he try and take off a second time? He was trying to get the plane to his bosses mechanic because the plane kept loosing power. A couple of cars driving on the highway helped get him out of the plane as it was burning, he sustained some burns to his legs. He told me he probably couldn't have gotten out on his own because when the plane pancaked on the highway it hurt his back. He would have burned up in the wreck. Easy access to a fire extinguisher would have been nice.

That got me thinking about another friend (and fellow BCP'r) who burned up in his wreck. At the last second he spotted highline wires, dove under them, managed to miss them but one wing caught an oak tree branch which flipped his plane onto its back and he landed upside down. The aircraft remained intact but caught fire. He was a tall guy like me and his head hit the ground on impact. We don't know which killed him but hope it was the blunt force trama to his head the medical examiner said occurred on impact.

As these thoughts were swirling around in my head I briefly wondered about midair collisions and what the percentage chance (likelihood) is for one of those, thinking in particular about the interest around ADS-B and I came across this old article. Found the conclusions interesting.
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/820.pdf

But back to the OP's question about "Staying warm when things are less than ideal". So after much thought and running various scenarios through my head here is what I came up with:

1. Be sure your airplane is maintained to the highest degree possible. I instruct my mechanics (over and over until it becomes natural for them) that every time they work on my plane they must actively look for things that need attention and fix them. It seems foolish for me to end up in a situation that is "less then ideal" due to mechanical failure.

2. Be sure you are trained adequately for the mission you are undertaking. Practice practice practice practice, and then practice some more. Again it seems foolish for me to end up in a "less then ideal" situation from pilot error, although it would probably be the most likely cause. I have to push the envelope in order to advance my skills, but I do that in baby steps and never let someone else rush me into a situation I'm not comfortable with.

3. Under no circumstances will I fly without my inReach, without it being turned on, and without my having told someone that if I don't arrive when expected check my track and call for my rescue if needed.

4. I never go flying without survival gear. The state of Alaska and the country of Canada both have regulations regarding survival gear in the plane. When I lived in the lower 48 I rarely carried survival gear, at least up to the point where I got my airplane stuck on an island one summer day and all I had with me was a pocket knife.

5. If I find myself having to make a forced landing for any reason I'm manually tripping the 406 ELT while I still can. If I've got time I'm also tripping the SOS on my inReach. Once on the ground, if I think the 406 and inReach have been compromised I'm tripping the PLB I wear around my neck. Like I said earlier I have multiple redundancy for "come and get me and bring pizza".

6. Knife. The most important survival tool you can carry is a knife. A knife makes getting shelter and food much easier, as well as making splints for sprains or broken bones.

FIRE. WATER. SHELTER. FOOD. That's what's needed for survival, and in that order.

FIRE: I have been trained, and I've practiced, how to make and use a bow drill to start fires, and even easier to make (but harder to learn how to use) how to make and use a hand drill to start fires. But I find a Bic lighter much easier so I carry one in my pocket when flying. In addition to a fire keeping us warm, it will also purify our water, cook our food, and harden our wooden tools. And of course act as a signal source for our rescue.

In addition to carrying a lighter I also wear a survival bracelet made of paracord (which can be used for lashing things) which contains a P-51 Can Opener, a ferrocerium rod that can be struck with the P-51 Can Opener (or knife) to produce a spark burning at over 3,000 degrees, 30' of 80lb fishing line that can be used for fishing and is strong enough to provide extra material for lashings and or building tools, also a fishing hook, and 18" of 45lb test fishing wire that can be used as a snare. And I've been trained how to use all of this.

WATER: Ever since my "island" incident I carry multiple Life Straws. One on my person and one in my survival bag. I also carry a days worth of bottled water on the plane.

SHELTER: Of course I always have a tent in the airplane, and if not badly damaged or burned the airplane can be used as a shelter. I also know how to build a debris hut. I have built them and slept in them. Not warm, not comfortable, but warm enough not to die from exposure and fairly dry in a light to moderate rain storm. They do require a lot of "material gathering" to build but if that's the only option it's better then nothing.

FOOD: Of course I carry nuts and bars in the plane. And I've got fishing and snare gear around my wrist. And of course my inReach (bring pizza).

I know I've wandered all over the place, but that's where my mind went when thinking about the original question. I guess the simple answer is lighter, survival bracelet, and knife.

But I'd rather not get in this situation in the first place so I spend a lot of time and money trying to keep this from happening.

You won't be warm, it'll suck, you will be chilled to your very bones until you can finally take a week long hot shower. The best advice I have seen is to always work to make your situation better. Ask yourself "what is going to kill me first?" and then deal with that issue, then ask again "what is going to kill me first now?" and deal with that, repeat until you are in the long hot shower.

Cotton kills, it will not wick moisture away from you body. Synthetics can melt to your body in the event of a fire - Yes. However wool long undies are unbearable to me. I chose Polypropylene, move around enough and your body's own heat will move that moisture through the polypro to your next layer which hopefully can 'wick' it out as well, your clothes will dry from your body outward. I will take some shit about my choice, but it is based on running around the mountains of GA and swamps of Fla for two months in middle of winter, getting soaked from rain, snow, mountain creeks, and river crossings etc plus another two and a half years of being cold, wet, and miserable.

Shelter, find it, build it, keep improving it. Fire is great if you can get it. Fire is a comforting feature and gives you something to do, but you can live for a long time without it, don't start thinking that you will die without fire - because then you will.

Take care of yourself first, then help those around you. Helping others gets your mind off your personal 'suck'.

Read survival stories, not how to, but the stories of those that have done it. A common theme becomes evident, they were just too freaking pigheaded to die.

I also carry a PLB in my vest.There is a delorme, a sat phone in my plane which also has a 406 ELT. As was said before....bring me pizza!

Headoutdaplane wrote:... However wool long undies are unbearable to me. I chose Polypropylene...

Polypropylene is the absolute worst thing you could be wearing in the event of a fire, even a flash fire. That said, freezing to death is every bit as much a risk as burning to death...though after a week in a polypropylene shirt I'd probably die from the odor.

Merino wool does not itch. It feels like cotton, is a fantastic insulator, wicks moisture, and (HUGE bonus here) doesn't hold body odor. It'll stink a little, but it's nothing like synthetics, and if you hang it up for a night it won't smell at all. It's expensive, doesn't last quite as long as synthetic clothing, and only the top brands (read price) perform well, but it's a freaking godsend. I don't wear anything else 99% of the time, flying or not.

I've tried several different brands, but Icebreaker is by FAR my favorite. If I see Icebreaker on sale (not uncommon), I buy it. I've got unworn shirts still sporting the tags that I bought four years ago, and if I see a good sale I'll buy more...it's that good. They're just fantastically good garments. I've got some tattered and battered Icebreaker shirts that are twelve years old...not pretty, but they still work fine.

A Icebreaker T-shirt will run you $80, and a long sleeve will run $110, but it's not uncommon to find them for 50% off in the off-season. You just cannot go wrong with these. They are absolutely worth the money.

Can't add much to this thread, but I disagree that space blankets won't keep you warm. Pull out one of the little pocket size ones, wrap it around you in moderate weather, and pretty soon you'll be sweating. Even in really cold weather, they'll keep you warm, if you keep them closed up.

I carry a very complete full survival kit that complies with Alaska requirements, most of the time, especially if I'm going over the rocks. I also have a complete medical kit. Even in the relatively civilized part of Colorado in which I live, there are a lot of places one could set down without being near anyone.

In my vest, I carry one of the little space blankets, a fire starter kit, pocket flares, a small medical kit, etc., along with a 406 PLB. I forget what else right now, but the pockets are full.

I have a second 406 PLB in the airplane. I don't have an inReach or Spot, but my airplane has a 406 ELT, which I would activate while still in the air if I was going down.

No matter what the weather, I wear sufficient clothing and have a hat, jacket, and gloves--heavier in the winter, of course.

Many long years ago, I took a modified USAF survival course as part of my USAF ROTC summer camp experience, which was held in the Rawahs of Colorado. As a result, I'm pretty confident that with the kits I've put together, I could survive for awhile, along with my passengers. In today's environment, with decent PLBs etc., there's less likelihood of a long term need to survive, but being able to survive overnight and through inclement weather for a day or two is still pretty important.

Cary

Hammer wrote:

Headoutdaplane wrote:... However wool long undies are unbearable to me. I chose Polypropylene...

Polypropylene is the absolute worst thing you could be wearing in the event of a fire, even a flash fire. That said, freezing to death is every bit as much a risk as burning to death..

I knew I would take heat (get it? heat?) with my position, but it is a risk/benefit I have evaluated and will run with. My chances of dying of hypothermia in my environment are higher than burning.

As to stinking, yeah, we stunk....we stunk so bad that the chopper pilots insisted on leaving the doors open, even in winter.

Headoutdaplane wrote:

Hammer wrote:

Headoutdaplane wrote:... However wool long undies are unbearable to me. I chose Polypropylene...

Polypropylene is the absolute worst thing you could be wearing in the event of a fire, even a flash fire. That said, freezing to death is every bit as much a risk as burning to death..

I knew I would take heat (get it? heat?) with my position, but it is a risk/benefit I have evaluated and will run with. My chances of dying of hypothermia in my environment are higher than burning.

As to stinking, yeah, we stunk....we stunk so bad that the chopper pilots insisted on leaving the doors open, even in winter.

OoKee...so why not address all three issues, with zero downside, by trying some merino wool? It really matters nothing to me whether you do or don't; but if you want to stay warm in all conditions, without the risk of being laminated in a three-second fire, plus not stinking yourself out of your own sleeping bag, then merino wool is a no-brainer.

If you're stuck fast to what worked twenty years ago then so be it...but would you go to a dentist with that philosophy?

20 years ago? Try 35, and yeah, it got me through ranger school in winter, northern warfare training in Ak, two winters of flying in the arcitic and a shit ton more of balls deep in cold wet and miserable than I really care to remember. So while others may go for the Marino wool, I will go with what has worked for me.

And as far as I know the dentists still use novacaine and laughing gas.

Is Barnstormer really the only person so far that's mentioned food? Calories (fuel for internal heat), Exercise (generates internal heat), and Warmth (external heat), aka Feed 'em, Beat 'em, and Heat 'em. Plus, obviously, hydration, preferably dry or at least wicking clothing, ground insulation and shelter. Pretty simple recipe really. My airplane kit includes a 10+ year-old fruit cake still in the shipping gift box, a Northern Companion most times of the year, sleeping bags and closed cell foam pads, plus other bits and pieces. The one camp chore that always gets me too hot no matter what is stuffing items into stuff sacks. Sleeping bags, wing covers... When Alaska Rescue Coordination Center shows up, I plan to be belching fruit cake burps and maniacally stuffing wing covers while sweating bullets into my wicking Merino.
-DP

denalipilot wrote:Is Barnstormer really the only person so far that's mentioned food? Calories (fuel for internal heat), Exercise (generates internal heat), and Warmth (external heat), aka Feed 'em, Beat 'em, and Heat 'em. Plus, obviously, hydration, preferably dry or at least wicking clothing, ground insulation and shelter. Pretty simple recipe really. My airplane kit includes a 10+ year-old fruit cake still in the shipping gift box, a Northern Companion most times of the year, sleeping bags and closed cell foam pads, plus other bits and pieces. The one camp chore that always gets me too hot no matter what is stuffing items into stuff sacks. Sleeping bags, wing covers... When Alaska Rescue Coordination Center shows up, I plan to be belching fruit cake burps and maniacally stuffing wing covers while sweating bullets into my wicking Merino.
-DP

Man, where is that LIKE button? This is exactly what I used to do when I flew for the Army. My "go-pack" had a bunch of those little C-ration fruitcake cans in it. No one EVER ate them, and I would just gather them up and stuff them in my bag. Even I wasn't tempted to eat them outside a genuine "survival" situation, but each little can contained about 1500 calories if/when you really needed them. We operated mostly in desert areas, so water was the greatest concern. I bought a 5-gallon metal water can from a military surplus supply (Oh, the irony of having to purchase something for military use that was once military issue...) and kept it strapped into the back seat when we went out. It was emptied and cleaned out after each trip. The one time I needed it, it was hot as blazes, but tasted oh so good!

Most of the 25 lbs in the Army survival kits each crewman carried on a Medevac Huey in the NMARNG was food.

I got a chance to test the vacuum packed down bag at Ft. Irwin. 717th picked me up at Tohatchi on the way over. They forgot my regular camp out kit and we were in a GP Medium by the Combat Support Hospital. That survival kit bag, compressed to a couple square feet and two inches thick, expanded to a full bag with four inch loft.

Nice aluminum snow shovel and saw as well.

Thanks for the replies!
I don't have much to say, just been reading the posts multiple times over.

I definitely plan on practicing with the survival kit. I made a practice kit for that purpose. That way the main kit stays grab and go ready, and saves wear and tear on it.

Contact,
I listened to that short story on the way home last night and man thats a bumer!!!! I kept thinking if he was better friends with his dog why didnt he just warm his hands up with him to begin with? And I firmly believe its better to die with another than alone! I'm just sayin!