Good discussion and I agree with most of the above; however, my worst anxiety is taking someone else out. We as pilots know, accept, and exercise some control over the risk. A passenger on the other hand does not. That does cause a bad dream once in a while. The older I get, the more concern it causes as I've noticed a definite trend in increased anxiety over the years.

Weather does it to me. I don't like marginal wx.

Zane wrote:But I'm talking about the half-dream state, the other voice that is momentarily exposed while your conscious rationale is disabled during sleep, freely entertaining the worst things your mind can imagine. It's certainly much more unpleasant than any waking anxiety.

Zane,

About 3-4 times over the past 25 years, I've had something happen that's kind of similar to what you're talking about. I'd wake up with the unshakeable feeling that it wasn't a good day to fly -- that something would go terribly wrong. Only had this with flying. And whatever causes this, it's not about flying in general, it's about flying on that day. Weird.

Makes me curious how the mind works.

Takes a lot of the fun out of it for that day. It's like having some asshole looking over your shoulder all day ready to say "I told you this would happen..."

--Tony

A few weeks ago at the Lake Hood strip, a pair of Cubs rolled up to the gas pump. One was pumping while the other was waiting to his right, side by side. The non-pumping Cub pilot got out and went and talked to his buddy, and I was using the porta-pisser. As I got back in my Jeep, I heard the pilot yell to his friend "see you out there!" and fire up his engine. I noticed that his aileron locks were still on but I thought maybe he was concious of this until he started to taxi away from his buddy. I don't know what happened in my head but it was like one of those surreal moments where time just slows down for a second. I ran up to his friend and pointed out that his locks were on and his buddy started waiving to him, but he didn't see. Not knowing what to do, I ran around the back side of the plane and banged on his window and pointed to them before taking them off and handing them to him through his window.

I know (hope) that he would have noticed before he got off the ground, or someone else would have stopped him. I get that (I hope it anyway).

Since then, I have probably woken up in my sleep thinking about that 50 times. My preflights since then have been so friggin thorough but I just can't fathom how bad that could have ended up. It made me think big time about every aspect of my flights.

I think it really got worse after that Birchwood crash though. I'm curious to know if they will ever find out exactly what happened, but it sounds like the passenger seat came loose. That series of events plays out in my mind over and over again when I don't want it to. I just think repeatedly - what would I do?

It's not taking over my life or anything, but it pops into my head somewhat constantly.

From a friend of mine "Death but barters those it does not take"

Back when I was flying for my supper I usually had to pay real close attention to my time limits to keep from timing out. Total hours for the year (1400) and 13 days off in a quarter. We were flying hours and hours each day, seven days a week, for months at a time. You get very comfortable sitting in the seat doing that, and it's just where you spent the majority of your waking hours each day.

But...

When I took days off, I'd usually do a week or two in a row just to go somewhere green. The first anxiety would be from having to get into an automobile or truck and have to drive. I would sit there and realize I hadn't driven in five or six months. Just a very uncomfortable, nagging sensation.

And the other issue would be the first morning back at work and walking down to the airport. That same nagging uneasiness, and the feeling that my "edge" was off. It always took the first start up and take-off of the day to shake the feeling, and get back into the groove. And this was every time I left for a few days and didn't fly.

And now, shit I get it all the time. Especially with the forced "down times" I've had with my medical, and with engine change in the POS I'm flying down here. Just a underlying crap feeling that the edge is gone and the airplane doesn't fit well.

Gump

Haven’t had it for a while, but I used to dream that I take off from a road somewhere, rotate and accelerate in ground effect, but am trapped below an endless web of power lines. I keep hurtling along, looking for a gap where I can haul back and climb above them, but there’s no gap. The road turns, and . . . I wake up.

What does it all mean? The year after I got my PPL, I found myself scud running down a long river canyon that ended in a huge reservoir. I followed the highway next to the river all the way down to the lake, but then the road climbed up into the clouds and I had to fly over the water to the dam. Below the dam was a huge hydro generation station with high tension wires crossing several hundred feet above the river. I had to get over them in order to make it to town and safety. It was close. More than one "bug" has been zapped in those power lines before and since. It still gives me the willies two decades later, and is probably responsible for my dreams.

Don't tell your wife you have bad dreams about flying. Too.

CAVU

Over my relatively short commercial flying career, I've developed what I can only describe as paranoia. I flew a 206 with a fresh engine overhaul last year that averaged 12 hours between emergencies. Now, in any airplane, I strap down everything that isn't bolted down, the more straps the better. If I'm empty, I won't let the straps lay around on the floor.

I fully expect the engine to fail on every takeoff, and plan accordingly. I depart towards the softest/shortest obstacles (brush rather than spruce) and also plan a departure route for when the engine gives up 3 cylinders at liftoff at near gross weight (almost piled up the 206 into the Sheraton off the west end of Merrill Field last summer).

I rarely will fly at minimum altitude for anything (NOE used to be my favorite altitude when I was 17), and if I'm not watching for a great emergency landing spot, I'm scanning the skies. It's surprising how close you can get to a bird or another airplane/helicopter in the middle of freakin' nowhere in Alaska.

I fly a PA32R at work now and will check the gear down 4 or 5 times from extension all the way to the flare (I had the baggage door pop open 3 years ago in the pattern and I completely forgot to lower the gear until the warning horn went off in the flare). I've been in some really tight spots in bad weather before also, and don't even bother going up if it looks close to minimums. I don't know exactly how I've lived this long, but I'm not just getting older, I'm getting wiser...

Zane,

Obviously some subconsiously repressed fear that has not risen to the conscious level. Our subconscious does not lie. That is why the MEN IN BLACK pump folks full of that "truth serum" when they want to know the........truth.

Wouldn't surprise me that your upcoming marriage is a factor. Maybe a career move? Loss of someone dear to you? Aging parents? That experimental pile of parts that you hope to turn into an airplane? Girlfriend expressed concerns about continued flying? Sparky Immerson? Steve Fosset? Maybe AF 447? We all wake up one day and realize that we have accepted responsibilities which extend beyond ourselves....come to realize that we are not immortal. Anxiety can develop and surface as awarness of such seeps into our unconscious mind.

I've awakened many nights feeling anxious about issues in life. But I've never had an experience such as you have indicated.....concerning flight. Yes of course....conscious concern, caution..... awareness that one may never return from the next flight. But that is not what you are talking about.

If you are seriously concerned and I think that you should be....talk to a shrink. Guarenteed that you learn things about yourself that you never really knew, acknowledged or understood. Most likely will uncover the reason for your "flying anxiety." Just tell them the truth. Never try to out-psych the psych!

Been there, done that. Tested and profiled by the best. Passed with flying colors. Came away astounded by what I had come to understand.

Bob ATP/CFI/BA/PhD in BS

Zane if and when you talk to a shrink, ask him/her for me. I don't remember having any airplane dreams/wake up starts, but I do wake up a lot where I am doing things with dead people, mostly relatives, but not always. Sometimes they are friends who have "gone".

I also had two different friends tell me that they have dreamed that they saw me falling out off an airplane and bouncing on the ground in front of them. And yesterday I flew all day with the door off?

My other ones are about sex, which is ok???

Now consciously, I think about crashing in forested covered mountains in West Virginia, and how I would handle an engine failure at less then 500 feet. I figure that I’d have maybe 5 seconds to point it somewhere. Do we have anyone who survived a crash into heavy timber? I might start a thread about this with some of my thoughts??

Just don't tell him that yellow makes you sad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwfZYO1di4

When I was a non-pilot, a kid and young adult, I used to dream about flying through wires and trees and being really stressed out.

Later in life, I got my certificate and fly about 100 hours per year. I never have dreams about flying anymore. But there seems to be a nagging uncomfortable feeling before a flight over hazardous terrain. It disappears as soon as I start my preflight. While flying I am so in the moment that all this discomfort is gone.

tom

Heh heh... I'm not troubled by this, certainly not to the extent that I feel seeing a shrink is necessary. It feels normal and certainly founded in my opinion. Now the getting married and having a thousand home improvement tasks on my plate...that might be a different story.

Savannah-Tom wrote: While flying I am so in the moment that all this discomfort is gone.

That's a really good point. So true. Staying busy really does eliminate the idle devil's hand in your head. "Automatic rough" on the other hand can drive one nuts too.

In thinking about it more, about the difference between the conscious and subconscious mind, I think your consciousness employs rational thought, so when you think about a wing ripping off in a loaded maneuver, you can easily counter in your thought process with what you know about wing construction, stated limits, safety margins, statistics, etc. Most conscious anxiety can easily be countered with rational arguments. Whether that alleviates it or not is another story...everyone is different.

The subconscious enjoys no rational reconciliation of fear or anxiety, which is why it can be more intense, but also non-existent while awake. Anyway, the brain is weird.

I think that increased frequency of flying adventures could possibly beat it into submission over a period of time.

CAVU wrote:Just don't tell him that yellow makes you sad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwfZYO1di4

Never gets old!

CAVU wrote:Haven’t had it for a while, but I used to dream that I take off from a road somewhere, rotate and accelerate in ground effect, but am trapped below an endless web of power lines.

Very, VERY common dream among pilots. You'd be amazed how many pilots have this same dream. I've had it.

nuttin

mm

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this...

You guys and your damn anxieties..just woke up from a dream that I was in the backseat of my old C-170, had landed it safely on an old dusty dirt road and this other yahoo thought he knew better about how to take it off from a soft dirt road. Well he couldn't get it up to speed, there came one of those old Warren Truss steel bridges, he could not get it airborn, went off the side of the dirt road, ground looped it and bent it all to hell. No one was hurt but I was pissed!. First flying horror dream I've ever had!! Why do I read these stupid posts!?
Now I can't go back to sleep!
HC

hicountry wrote::evil: You guys and your damn anxieties..just woke up from a dream that I was in the backseat of my old C-170, had landed it safely on an old dusty dirt road and this other yahoo thought he knew better about how to take it off from a soft dirt road. Well he couldn't get it up to speed, there came one of those old Warren Truss steel bridges, he could not get it airborn, went off the side of the dirt road, ground looped it and bent it all to hell. No one was hurt but I was pissed!. First flying horror dream I've ever had!! Why do I read these stupid posts!?
Now I can't go back to sleep!
HC

I guy I work with always has these crazy dreams. One of the last ones he talked about was about him and some friends riding in a fishing boat down a paved road with alligators popping through the pavement. There was more to the story, but I forgot it