kevbert wrote:People who say a gun has no place in a survival kit have a definition of survival that is too narrow.

True. I was thinking of an actual crash. And you are right about a book. It has let my better judgment win out on more than one occasion.

Of course, one of the handiest things in the backcountry can be a FS Yale key....

Sigg, you are correct about it being made in Costa Mesa under contract. The grip assembly is a machined down Israeli style FAL parts, the stock extension mechanism is also machined down parts, with the actual wire part of the stock seeming to be unique. I've got several versions of the FAL in my collection (there are a lot). As a joke, after nearly 12 years working for different agencies, I made a collection of guns people pointed at me, FAL's figure prominently as everybody dumped their old ones on Africa. Kind of a large collection, but the value climbs better than my 401K.

Training is really key, like good old Dearth Vader said: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." Tech stuff always seems to break in the field, get to know how to use primitive tools. Learn the secret of fire. Trying a few survival camping nights can be really constructive. I've done a summer training at Eglin AFB and a winter one in Bangor Maine at the Navy SERE school. They toss you out with a few items, like a compass, knife, water container. You can survive, even in winter conditions quite a long time with proper training and little in the way of advanced stuff. However, being prepared with several items in a well thought out kit can really make the difference between living more comfortably and possibly dying. However, too much stuff is weight. Too much weight can cause your hope to be avoided accident. There is a point of diminishing returns.

If you really want to live, or keep those with you alive, take an EMT 1 course at a community college. Red Cross used to do a good course, but it was gutted by our friendly horde of lawyers. I've personally been well served by that kind of training, keeping more than one person alive for a day or more during trying circumstances. If you do the EMT courses, the good ones do ride alongs and after a few car crash scenes, you will understand what kind of trauma you can expect to see and how to deal with it. Most folks when confronted with damaged human bodies, react poorly, even more so to damage to their own. A little exposure can make you less emotionally reactive. Shock kills most people in trauma, and learning to deal with it will save lives, possibly yours. shock, while primarily a physiological reaction, can be made much worse by an emotional reaction.

I recently had a couple of friends have an accident where one died the other lived. Luckily it only took a few hours for him to be found. No amount of training or gear would have saved him from being pulped by a pine tree. The other in the right seat was actually saved by first, the lack of a pine tree on his side, and second, by the seatbelt airbag system. The unfortunate 20' fall after the rapid deceleration broke his back and one leg. So he wasn't able to do much to help his own situation. Luckily there was no fire. The ELT and ATC brought in rescue. As one person mentioned a good flight plan and concerned people knowing where to look can be the most valuable assets, making the difference between a survival situation and an accident response.

dogpilot wrote:.... It was hard to crash anywhere in Africa and not be in the middle of people, some actually friendly. You could be over the most god forsaken part of the Ogaden desert, land on a flat piece of land, you were utterly sure there would be nobody nearby (pehaps to drain the lizard). Within 5 minutes folks would appear and try to sell you eggs or some such thing. .....

That reminds me of the movie "Lord of War", the scene where arms dealer Nichoals Cage lands a big cargo plane out in middle of the desert-- a sort of time-lapse series of scenes show various locals coming along to loot the airplane, eventually even stripping the airplane itself (inclding engines).

lesuther wrote:.......The most important survival tool to me is an accurate flight plan with FSS, a plan with family or friends on the ground, and using flight following as much as practicable. .....

I haven't field a flight plan in years, nor used flight following except when required to check in when transitting a controlled airspace. Don't really wanna start doing either. But living alone, there's a good chance that my failure to come home might not get much attention. Just yesterday as I was parking my car in it's usual spot in front of my hangar, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to get in the habit of putting a note on the front seat or dashboard saying where I'm going, probable route, and expected time of return. At least there'd be a chance of someone realizing that I was overdue & sending the mounties after me. There was an incident a couple years ago of a guy taking off from Harvey Field in Snohomish & never coming back. His airplane had been spotted that day at Hoquiam (as I recall) so when he turned up missing later they at least had a rough idea of a route to search by air, but no luck. His airplane & body were discovered months later by (I believe) a hunter in the Skokomish River drainage north of Shelton.

kevbert wrote:People who say a gun has no place in a survival kit have a definition of survival that is too narrow. There are plenty of situations that don't involve airplane crashes where it might make all the difference in your survival! You might use its presence to deter violent criminals, you might need to use it to signal others, you might use it to collect some dinner, etc.

Last fall I flew into Chamberlain Basin with the pooperati in October after the ranger was gone. We had the place to ourselves, it was fantastic. When it was time to leave, the weather had gone to crap. No problem, wait a day, that's why an extra day's food got packed. The next day, it was fine, and out I went. However, what if the weather was still bad? The dogs would be whining for their supper, but all of their food would now be gone. Should you risk trying to fly out to feed yourself or the mutts, or do you decide to stay figuring you can go blast some squirrels? Without a gun and with no food, I probably wouldn't wait for more than a day or two before I would decide to risk it.

Anything which will give you the comfort to make a better decision that will contribute to your survival can technically be regarded as survival equipment.

Food is actually VERY low on the list of NEEDS when it comes to survival. Consider the case of Helen Klaben and Ralph Flores: http://whitehorsestar.com/archive/histo ... ivepart-2/ who survived in extremely cold conditions for some seven weeks with virtually no food. They lost weight, but they were still functioning just fine at the end of their ordeal.

As for dogs, bear in mind that they're directly descended from wild canids (I'm not going even suggest the "W" word here ), who often go for several days between meals. Won't hurt them a bit.

Now, if you FEEL better carrying a gun, good for you, and by all means carry one. If I'm in bear country (and black bears worry me as much or more than brown bears, and I've worked on them both extensively) I do like to have a firearm of some kind. As was noted--you sleep better.

Read up on Helen and Ralph. It's a fascinating story, and lots to be learned from their experience. They were both total novices at "camping" and survival. They did fine, never the less, largely because they kept their wits about them.

Oh, and they had an extensive library of books with them at the time they crashed

MTV

dogpilot wrote: A little exposure can make you less emotionally reactive. Shock kills most people in trauma, and learning to deal with it will save lives, possibly yours. shock, while primarily a physiological reaction, can be made much worse by an emotional reaction.

Dogpilot, you've obviously been there and done that in your travels, and I very much respect your experience and advice--and your willingness to pass it on to the rest of us.

Your statement about shock and preparation reminded me of a book that really crystalized how I think about preparing for life and death situations. The book is called "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales.
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival-Lives-Dies-ebook/dp/B0028Z4LUU
He is a psychologist who studies risk and reaction, but also an adventurous soul and former competitive acro pilot. The book is a compilation of case studies involving extreme situations, and an analysis of who typically lives, who typically dies, and why. I don't have anything to match your experiences, but I'm a former raft guide, swiftwater rescue, volunteer firefighter guy, and some of the points made in this book have proven to be important in my various close scrapes.

If nothing else, we should read it ahead of time to be prepared, then carry it in our planes per Gump's suggestion so we don't die of boredom or do something stupid(er) while waiting for rescue!!!

Great discussion!

Along the lines of some of the above comments, I've been thinking seriously about taking the NOLS/Wilderness Medicine Instisute's Wilderness First Responder course:
http://www.nols.edu/wmi/courses/wfr.shtml

I have the course text book by Buck Tilton, which is quite good. You can find it here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076275 ... GYTXQ1D4ZV

The single most important "tool" in your survival kit is your brain. Consider once more Helen Klaben and Ralph Flores. Neither of these folks had ANY survival training, and they certainly weren't well equipped with survival gear. Nevertheless, they not only survived, they survived in -40 degree temperatures, for SEVEN weeks.

Your brain is your best survival tool. Use it wisely and THINK before you take any action out there, and you'd be amazed at how well and long the average person can survive in the wilderness, even without a lot of training.

Wilderness survival training does, however, provide enough training such that your brain (remember, that part of you that's your most important tool) doesn't lead you off in the wrong direction, and panic.

MTV

I agree that your brain is the single most important item in your survival kit. However, it has to be utilized BEFORE you find yourself in a bad situation. Prior planning prevents piss poor performance. Helen and Ralph were just plain lucky. Period. Any number of things could have changed their outcome. Many trained and wise people have perished because something unexpected happened that they were not able to overcome. 40 below with no shelter and no tools to create a shelter with spells death no matter how calm you remain. Certainly there are dozens of stories of survival despite the odds. But for every one who survives there are many more who don't. What you don't usually hear about are the well prepared survivors. Bottom line for me is that I choose to have a survival kit with me no matter what I do. Dirtbiking, snowmobiling, camping and most of all, flying. I pray that I never need it but I like my chances better with one than without.

A tragic event. Albert still hasn't been found... His wife made it for 7 weeks, most of that time alone. I'm guessing her ability to keep her head on straight made the difference.

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/121425604.html

One of the most fascinating parts of "Deep Survival" to me was the study of those who get lost (like, for days or weeks). The pattern repeats itself over and over--first they start to convince themselves the terrain matches their idea of where they think they are (this has the effect of eliminating any valid references, and heightening disorientation). Then they start to hurry, thinking it must be just over the next hill (this has the effect of getting them more lost, quicker). Based on the evidence, most lost people eventually go through a stage of complete panic--thrashing about, running uncontrollably, etc. (getting them further lost and leaving them totally unhinged). The book says virtually all really really lost people go through this process--the key is how quickly they can get through the process, with how little additional damage or disorientation, and then accept their situation for what it is and focus on the right now. This sounds simple and straightforward, but it was amazing to see how common and consistent all of these variables are across these various situations. Those who are able to accept their situation, and deal with it as it really is, the quickest, tend to be those who survive.

Apply the same process to cockpit decision making (e.g., weather, forced landing, etc.), and I think there are many parallels about who lives and who dies. On my first engine out (at 800 ft AGL over a wide river), I can distinctly remember having to force myself to overcome the powerful initial reaction: "This doesn't even seem real, and I can't believe this is happening to me." With only 800 feet below me, I didn't have much time to cling to my illusions, so I had to go through this little mental journey pretty quickly. To this day, though, I'm still struck by how powerful that sense of denial was. (Fortunately, everything turned out ok.)

There are other gems in the book as well. For example, when in a crisis situation, the focus tends to narrow more and more, eventually narrowing to only one or two primary things. The important thing--and the purpose of training and preparation--is to make sure those one or two primary things are, in fact the right things that are going to allow you to survive. To make that point, he uses the example of an F-18 driver who flies into the back of the boat, despite all his hours of training, and the LSO and all his instrumentation screaming at him to add power and go around. It takes some powerful psychology to ignore all that training and all those external inputs, and I think he does a reasonable job of positing what that is all about.

I won't bore you by paraphrasing any more of the book, but I highly recommend it if you are interested in thinking about this stuff ahead of time--which is when it really counts.

Oregon180 wrote:Great discussion!

Along the lines of some of the above comments, I've been thinking seriously about taking the NOLS/Wilderness Medicine Instisute's Wilderness First Responder course:
http://www.nols.edu/wmi/courses/wfr.shtml

I have the course text book by Buck Tilton, which is quite good. You can find it here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076275 ... GYTXQ1D4ZV

Buck is a great guy, and the NOLS courses are top-shelf.

Based on the evidence, most lost people eventually go through a stage of complete panic--thrashing about, running uncontrollably, etc. (getting them further lost and leaving them totally unhinged).

Years ago, I was flying a SAR mission as a volunteer for the sheriff's office. We found our victim from the air, and his footprints were obvious--around in circles until he wore himself out and sat down by a tree and froze. We led the ground party to him--he had taken off all of his clothes in the process. Panic does strange things.

Cary

Cary wrote:

Based on the evidence, most lost people eventually go through a stage of complete panic--thrashing about, running uncontrollably, etc. (getting them further lost and leaving them totally unhinged).

Years ago, I was flying a SAR mission as a volunteer for the sheriff's office. We found our victim from the air, and his footprints were obvious--around in circles until he wore himself out and sat down by a tree and froze. We led the ground party to him--he had taken off all of his clothes in the process. Panic does strange things.

Cary

What you describe is not necessarily panic. That behavior is well documented as the final stages of hypothermia. Many hypothermia victims remove their clothing as their core body temperature drops perilously low.

My earlier references to the Klaben/Flores story were not intended to suggest that you should NOT take up survival training. I have been through several well designed and taught survival programs, and I learned a great deal in each.

My point was simply that, IF you keep your head about you, and IF you keep occupied, and IF you take care of the critical items: Shelter and water.... you can last a looonnnngggg time in the woods, even in very trying conditions.

Neither Klaben or Flores were experienced outdoors persons, but, even though they were both injured, they instinctively (and fortunately) did exactly what they needed to do to survive. Ralph built a fire next to the wreckage of the airplane (they crashed in forest and the plane "harvested" a few trees for them), they had all their worldly possessions with them, including a LOT of clothing, almost all of which they wore during their ordeal, and Ralph started melting snow for water.

Since they were in dense forest, they weren't easily seen by search aircraft and it wasn't till weeks later that Ralph decided to try to walk out, having made homemade snowshoes from parts of the plane. Once he reached open meadows, he immediately recognized that they'd be much more visible in the open. He stomped out an SOS in the snow, with an arrow pointing toward the wreck, then proceeded back up to the wreck, built a primitive sled and towed Helen back down to that meadow. About the time they arrived, a bush pilot landed in a ski plane and rescued them.

Again, the point was that they did exactly the right things, and if you follow that basic mantra, you CAN survive. By the way, when asked what they did that entire time, Helen noted that she had many books with her in the plane, and read them all, and during the evenings, Ralph and she discussed religion. Ralph was LDS and Helen was Jewish. Keeping your mind off your difficulty is a huge part of avoiding panic.

It is an interesting story.

And, there are stories of people who just gave up. If you go down that road, you'll probably die.

MTV

OregonMaule wrote:

Not really practical for bush survival. Unless you think you can punch out a bear with those brass knuckles. I doubt that .25 or 32 would do much but make him mad. Perfect though for when the time comes for a breakdown of civil society when the gas runs out and trucks don't make it to the grocery store.... Or zombies walk the earth.

+1 - I'm a graduate of the WMI First Responder course. It's very good - and fun too. Though it might be a bit much for the recreational outdoorsman. It is geared for professionals (or semi professionals) like guides. There is a shorter course - wilderness first aid which doesn't go into as great of detail but still covers a lot of ground. But if you can afford it - take it.

'soyAnarchisto

RanchPilot wrote:

Oregon180 wrote:Great discussion!

Along the lines of some of the above comments, I've been thinking seriously about taking the NOLS/Wilderness Medicine Instisute's Wilderness First Responder course:
http://www.nols.edu/wmi/courses/wfr.shtml

I have the course text book by Buck Tilton, which is quite good. You can find it here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076275 ... GYTXQ1D4ZV

Buck is a great guy, and the NOLS courses are top-shelf.

Haven't tuned into this thread for awhile, and glad its brought up wilderness medicine. Among my numerous jobs, I am an instructor with Wilderness Medical Associates ( www.wildmed.com), with WMI we are the other big company in the wilderness medicine business. WMI runs fabulous classes I am certainly partial to our offerings, but I am biased. Our company has in the last few years created courses geared for particular persuits, we have had great success with a travel medicine course for tourists, and an offshore emergency medicine course for offshore sailors.

Anyway, I teach all sorts of WMA wilderness medicine courses all over the world, and I am currently working on a 2 day course specifically for pilots, and particularly backcountry pilots. I have a background as a canoe guide in Northern Canada, 13 years as a ski patroller for Purgatory in Colorado, a medic with our local fire department, vice president of our local SAR team, and an 800 hour skywagon pilot. The course would be 16 hours in length, include classroom and field sessions, and would cover the level of a Wilderness First Aid certification but with subjects specifically useful to pilots. You would also get a card with the name we decide for the cert., I am partial to "Backcountry Aviation Medicine" or BAM, not copyrighted yet, don't steal!

The course I have in mind would include subjects that would help pilots:
-Basics of Physiology and how the body reacts to injury or illness.
-Determining when you have a medical emergency and when you can treat the patient in the field.
-Assesment and treatment of traumatic injuries, including fractures, concussions, spinal assesment, etc.
-Risk Assesment as it pertains to calling for or assisting in a remote rescue.
-Building an appropriate first aid kit and equipment that may help you get rescued.
-Over the counter and prescription drugs that might be handy in a med kit.
-Aeromedicine- how altitude and flight affect your body and brain.

Our courses are all heavily scenario based and I envision practicing techniques for removing and treating patients from an incident with an airplane.

What do you guys think? Anyone interested? Let me know and I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Brad

Sounds like a great idea! I am assuming that this would be at your base, unless you could get enough participants in a certain area to put on a local course.. I am sure a balled up aircraft to practice with would not be too hard to find around these parts.

Learn To Return in Anchorage offers just such a course.

Not cheap, but they do a good job.

MTV