Would like to talk to someone that has ACTUAL experience with flying a T210 (prefer later model) with a Robertson STOL added. We (wife/I) own/fly a Husky so I understand STOL and 210 is NOT a STOL aircraft. Just considering adding a new dimension to our T210N of 20 yrs. I realize this isn't cheap; but, selling T210 and started over with another airplane isn't something I want to do again- I'm getting too old and just want to fly.
Thanks;
Please call, text or email; whatever you're comfortable with. Looking for real world experience.
Jack
303-356-7767
[email protected]

Curious what your mission for the T210 that might require an R-STOL?
Landing on a short field after a long trip maybe?
Seems like the most popular STOL mod for Cessnas nowadays is a Sportsman cuff,
sometimes with VG's added.
Don't know if either or both are approved for the T210, but maybe worth checking into.

.

800 hours with a RSTOL T210 L. Awesome airplane. Docile like a 182 in the landing and departing phases. Lift the flaps, and it’s a regular T210 again. Only downsides are the lower flap extension speeds and increased complexity in the rigging. Slowing down for landing on final was hard. Had to get below 100 mph to extend more than 10°. (Need a reference to confirm this speed. It’s been too long). VFR, that was never a problem. Just slow down before you go down, and level off any convenient time for the slow down. On an IFR approach, you’d need to work out your speeds and power settings for each phase of the approach. Something I never sorted out. I did some training, but but never did get the papers.

I enjoyed the heck out of mine. I don’t think I’d buy another one with that mod for just the two reasons quoted a above, but if it really fits your mission, then it’s a good trade off.

Hotrod-mission is exactly as you stated.

Pinecone- that is exactly what I needed. I had heard the flap speed is crazy slow. Got a pirep on Cessna site re VGs and that they work well to keep plane stable near stall. After 35 yrs in 210s and 20 in my 81 model; I'm just now getting interested in shorter grass landings. Retired and have more time to practice and actually go places. Good compliment to Husky fun.

Thanks guys, good stuff.

Jack

Jack,
A long time ago, I was the Chief Pilot for Lake Powell Air (later Scenic Airlines). We had a very mixed fleet of 182, T207, T210, Caravan, Chieftain, Twin Otter, etc.. We would take the 210's everywhere everything else went: Hite, Gouldings, Bar-10 Ranch, Grand Canyon Caverns. Usually, loaded to the gills.
I taught all the new guys how to fly the 210 slow. It does a very good job of it.
If you'd like, come down to Del Norte some time and we will go play around.
Th only real problem we had, and only very occasionally, was getting the 210's stuck in sand. Smaller, and very hard tires. No where to push once you were stuck.
Tom
7198501411

Its not a bad idea to plan flap extensions at the slowest possible speed as a normal procedure. It saves wear on the flap tracks etc and the Robertson STOL kit has plenty of them.

I purchased a T210M with the robertson, and I’m finding that 55kts on approach at gross is a pretty good starting point. I usually touch down at 46 kts per the track logs. I’m about 40 hours into flying it now, with a lot of that in the pattern practicing short landings and take offs. It stalls at 38 kts indicated (although the indication is pretty far off at that speed) with predictable and gentle break.

Flap extension speed is 85 kts for 20* and beyond, and you have to plan ahead to get that slow, so I usually have to get the gear out, drop 10* (both below 140) and then carefully pull power to almost idle to get to 85. I usually then fly 65-70 kts until final.

The aileron authority at slower speeds is pretty low, so I have to muscle the ailerons at slow speeds like during the flare. I’m hoping VGs will help with that.

I can get on the ground and stopped, and also get off the ground, both in about 500-600 feet consistently now, and there’s not a lot of drama involved. I still have elevator until about 30 kts sufficient to hold the nose wheel off the deck.

Takeoff at 20* flaps is standard short-field, except for care not to over speed the turbo....so keep the controls streamlined until about 48 kts IAS, then a swift pull to get it off, and by the time I start reaching for the gear I’m about 30’ feet off the deck, hitting 70kts, and climbing and accelerating fast. It climbs well with 20*, so no need to retract until you’ve cleared obstacles, and then nose down, 70-80 kts, retract flaps, and 120 kts...this also makes go-around from 30* less dramatic - you just immediately pull to 20*, there’s very little drop in lift, and full power, and I usually see 400 fpm.

Weird thing about the Robertson is lack of trim changes between 10-30*, although from 0-10* there is equal and opposite trim to gear extension, so if you drop gear then follow that with dropping 10*, you need no trim changes unless for slower speed.

The guys in Texas said that the last ones the did, including paint, was around 30k. I think its worth it when you have a nice airframe where you’ve already worked the kinks out of it, and you want to add backcountry into firmer dirt and grass strips.

Jack - you have my number so call anytime.

Slo

Not a 210 but I wish my 185 did not have it. I would not land on a 700 ft strip but it is nice to know I can land a little slower in an engine out situation.
1. This may be different on the 210, but the only realistic autopilot option is STEC as they are the only one who makes an adapter for it to attach to the modified bell crank.
2. At slow speed and gusty you need every bit of the ailerons. I have VGs so can not imagine what it is like without it.
3. Low flap extension speed. Unless you have speed brakes you have to cut the power and trim back 8-10 miles out. I still haven't worked out what to do on approaches apart from fly them really slowly or cut the power, nose up, drop flaps, at minimums.

It probably would open up shorter or higher strips on a 210. Unless pristine, changing airplanes usually means a year of working out someone else's gremlins.

Tom, I left a voice mail.

Slo, thanks for the pirep. I'll send PM. Quote from TX guys is $35K. Sounds like a great mod for slow; but, lots of $$.

Currently doing our Husky thing in AZ desert until it warms up and then back to CO. I'm going to spend $$ on gas to get as close to the performance edge stock and then add VGs temporarily with double sided tape and compare. Once I get a handle on 8-10K DAs, everything else will be safer/easier.

Jack

frstnflt wrote:Not a 210 but I wish my 185 did not have it. I would not land on a 700 ft strip but it is nice to know I can land a little slower in an engine out situation.
1. This may be different on the 210, but the only realistic autopilot option is STEC as they are the only one who makes an adapter for it to attach to the modified bell crank.
2. At slow speed and gusty you need every bit of the ailerons. I have VGs so can not imagine what it is like without it.
3. Low flap extension speed. Unless you have speed brakes you have to cut the power and trim back 8-10 miles out. I still haven't worked out what to do on approaches apart from fly them really slowly or cut the power, nose up, drop flaps, at minimums.

It probably would open up shorter or higher strips on a 210. Unless pristine, changing airplanes usually means a year of working out someone else's gremlins.

Something that really improves aileron authority in Robertson equipped 180/185 airplanes is to add the Sportsman STOL kit. That kit includes aileron gap seals, which noticeably improve aileron authority. Doesn’t quite get you back to stock aileron authority, but..... The Sportsman added to the RSTOL really mellows out the stall as well. Pretty much totally eliminates any tendency to roll off at high Alpha. Which makes the RSTOL much more safe and comfortable at slower speeds.

As to low flap extension speeds, I found it’s easy when wanting to get flaps down to close throttle for just a second, perform a smooth pull to bleed speed, lower flaps, then resume power and pitch. It sounds ugly, but after some practice, many passengers don’t even notice. I used that in the Husky, which is kind of slick and early models had low flap speed as well.

MTV

SloRoam wrote:I purchased a T210M with the robertson, and I’m finding that 55kts on approach at gross is a pretty good starting point. I usually touch down at 46 kts per the track logs. I’m about 40 hours into flying it now, with a lot of that in the pattern practicing short landings and take offs. It stalls at 38 kts indicated (although the indication is pretty far off at that speed) with predictable and gentle break.

Flap extension speed is 85 kts for 20* and beyond, and you have to plan ahead to get that slow, so I usually have to get the gear out, drop 10* (both below 140) and then carefully pull power to almost idle to get to 85. I usually then fly 65-70 kts until final.

The aileron authority at slower speeds is pretty low, so I have to muscle the ailerons at slow speeds like during the flare. I’m hoping VGs will help with that.

I can get on the ground and stopped, and also get off the ground, both in about 500-600 feet consistently now, and there’s not a lot of drama involved. I still have elevator until about 30 kts sufficient to hold the nose wheel off the deck.

Takeoff at 20* flaps is standard short-field, except for care not to over speed the turbo....so keep the controls streamlined until about 48 kts IAS, then a swift pull to get it off, and by the time I start reaching for the gear I’m about 30’ feet off the deck, hitting 70kts, and climbing and accelerating fast. It climbs well with 20*, so no need to retract until you’ve cleared obstacles, and then nose down, 70-80 kts, retract flaps, and 120 kts...this also makes go-around from 30* less dramatic - you just immediately pull to 20*, there’s very little drop in lift, and full power, and I usually see 400 fpm.

Weird thing about the Robertson is lack of trim changes between 10-30*, although from 0-10* there is equal and opposite trim to gear extension, so if you drop gear then follow that with dropping 10*, you need no trim changes unless for slower speed.

The guys in Texas said that the last ones the did, including paint, was around 30k. I think its worth it when you have a nice airframe where you’ve already worked the kinks out of it, and you want to add backcountry into firmer dirt and grass strips.

Jack - you have my number so call anytime.

Slo

This exactly. It’s what I would have written if it hadn’t been 5 years since I flew the one I sold. Well described.

Lack of trim changes is not weird. It’s engineered. There is a follower cable that runs from the flaps, down the left rear window post to the tail. It connects to the elevator bell-crank through a spring that pulls up elevator as flaps go down. They balanced it very nicely.

Just a note on the aileron droop feature on RSTOL kits: With a lot of time flying those kits, I really like them. I also recognize that aileron droop does restrict aileron effectiveness a bit. That’s where using some of that “Pilot Shit” comes in, much of which is judgement.

And, as I noted above, the Sportsman kit gives back some roll authority.

But, to me, the Robertson mods were very well thought out and engineered, and I’d jump in one any day.

I also find it interesting that you never hear pilots bitching about limited aileron authority in the Beaver, which also has ailerons that droop with flap extension. I always assumed that’s where Robertson got the idea.

MTV

The reason the OP was asking for T210 specific flight info was probably to avoid the following post. However, I believe there must be some amount of crossover experience from other models that could be relevant.

Specifically regarding the lower flap extension speed, I personally do not find this to be an issue for me and the 185 at all. When I first got the plane and was being checked out in it, my instructor wanted to show me a different approach technique that he would employ in 180s and 185s that was different from how I was flying the plane. I was doing what I would consider the more traditional flap timing in the pattern to end up on final with full flaps and power to achieve a stabilized approach flying the last 500' at 65-70. He then showed me that I could do something a little different than that if wanted or needed. He basically left the airplane in the clean configuration and drove the plane for the runway carrying a bit of power and speed in excess of the VFE. Then as we crossed the threshold, he simply reduced the power to idle and began the landing roundout. The airspeed quickly dropped below 100 mph and he added a notch of flaps. Speed keeps reducing and he drops another notch. We are now decelerating even more and the third notch, followed by the fourth just as we are touching down in a three point. He kept adding flaps in the flare as we slowed.

While I don't do this under most normal circumstances, the point is that the airplane can be slowed from a relatively high speed to below flap extension speed rather quickly with the reduction of power as MTV also noted earlier. It definitely does not take miles of preparation as has been suggested, in my opinion. In practice, I use this technique in two situations. One, when I'm landing somewhere and want to expedite my arrival. I simply keep the plane clean until on very short final and then reduce the power, add flaps, flaps, flaps, as the plane quickly decelerates, and then add power back in to smooth my touchdown. Two, when I'm flying an instrument approach. I have already decided that I do not like the burden of the extra workload on the missed if I have flaps hanging out. So I fly all of my approaches clean. 15 inches of manifold pressure on a typical W&B day gets me on the glide slope but at an airspeed over my flap extension speed. At minimums at 200 feet, I have MORE than enough time to go from 100-110 mph and clean to touching down with full flaps. I realize that the 210 may be significantly more slippery than the 185, and possibly that my propeller at idle has more braking effect than the 210, but at least it might be something to explore.

If performing no flap landings, we must be able to decelerate from pattern speeds to touchdown speeds in order to accomplish this and most GA aircraft can. If on the downwind above VFE, the plane will obviously need to decelerate below that to complete the landing. Think of it as the commercial 180 degree power off maneuver. In fact, some planes when power is pulled to idle can barely make it back to the runway.

In the Robertson, if you have flaps hanging out and it's gusty, you must be proficient at using your feet, carrying power to the bitter end, or using less flaps. I landed out in Kokhanok, AK eight times this last summer. About half of those landings were made with no flaps because the winds were so bad...and I mean bad.

I apologize for the post containing non 210 flight experience as requested by the OP. But hopefully my experience with the Robertson in general might be helpful.

Squash wrote:The reason the OP was asking for T210 specific flight info was probably to avoid the following post.

Yes sir. You are right to tell 210 flyers to avoid your post.