I'm not saying this was the cause, and by no means should be speculate... but in light of the recent 185 crash in AK and the fact that the tail was separated in flight I thought it helpful to share this pic.

This is from a 56 180 that I ferried out of AK this past spring, and am now doing a pretty extensive annual on. I did a thorough inspection with a bore scope, but it wasn't until I had everything apart that I was able to see just how bad it was.

It seems that these cracks are not products of age and time, as deficits are being found in different age air frames and different flight missions.

The bottom line is make sure you are having a real good look... If your mechanic is telling you you can comply with the AD w/out removing the stabs, perhaps its time to find another mechanic.

What part is this? Can you post a drawing from the maintenance manual with this area circled or highlighted, that would help.

Thanks

Kurt

That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles. The Cessna replacement parts are about $2500 per side. It appears there will be a bit of time before Tailwheel Tom will get his STC. I decided after thoughtful interaction with Beegles to go with the Cessna part and move on. I strongly feel as they, "Beegles" do some much work on the 180/185 that their opinion matters. I decided to err on the side of experience.

I'm not casting any judgment on TW Tom or QMI but relying on the judgement of those who know these airframes a lot better than I do.

MW

Thanks Bigrenna for the heads up. I just got off the phone with my IA discussing this very issue concerning a 180K model that I have been mulling over. If this problem turns up in more planes, it'll probably affect the sale if repairs are needed. The one I am looking at has been on wheels it's entire life, only two owners and 1600TT. Does not by anymeans make it safe from cracks. It's definitely something we will be looking at closely if a deal can be made.

Great image Greg. I'm going to have a busy summer of pulling stabs off of customer aircraft to comply with this AD. I am also of the opinion that you can't get a proper inspection done without removal of the stabs.

I'm not sure if anyone has really pinned down the cause other than a weak design from the start. Some are postulating that it has nothing to do with wheels, floats, skis, etc... (configuration) but more to do with in flight forces. Birds with lots of turbulent exposure may be more at risk than those that have hard lives in the dirt, which would explain cracks presenting in low time later model birds.

At any rate, the key is to look, which is a big deal when you get right down to it... There are a lot of "might as wells" when your back there. Bushings, bearings, new hardware, running new wires for tail strobes and VOR antennas etc... Folks haven't wanted to look and cut corners because of fear of cost and downtime, which is a real issue.

There is no getting around that these birds are all getting older and older. The fact that bad things have tended not to happen is a testament to just how well engineered these spam cans were designed, which is both good and bad... Good because the slide rule dudes have kept us safe all these air miles, but bad because it has lulled many into a false sense of security.

Proper stewardship going forward is unfortunately going to get much more inconvenient and expensive... but with the median price of the most typical dirt-bag rat-trap Cessna 180 now over $100k, I guess we can chalk it up to "rich-guy" problems. LOL.

At any rate, I hope all take their maintenance seriously and turn over all the rocks.

I just had a mechanic tell me that he thinks he can inspect it adequately with a borescope. As a matter of fact, he just did that while performing an annual inspection on a local 180. I admit that I'm not a mechanic so I don't really know.... but I like the idea of a better look by disassembling the tail.

I had mine inspected at a shop with a lot of 180 experience and they pulled the tail off. I'm glad they did. Mine didn't have cracks but, as Bigrenna said, there are a lot of other bits back there that need periodic attention too. Mine got new bushings, elevator hinge brackets, trim jack screws, and more.

The tail needs to come off occasionally. Even though it wasn't cheap, I'm glad mine got the full monty.

I was doing bore scope inspection’s.. Now that the AD is out I’m going to start pulling tails off.. need to stock up on Atlee bushings..

Although the Ad includes 182’s, I think there will be more cracks associated with 180 and 185’s due to the tail wheel getting beat around back there..

Brian


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I just had a mechanic tell me that he thinks he can inspect it adequately with a borescope. As a matter of fact, he just did that while performing an annual inspection on a local 180.

I tend to agree. I changed some bushings that the aluminum hinge casting pivots on and also the eccentric bushings at the top position of the jackscrews about 25 years ago. Pull the fairings, trim jackscrews to full nose down so they are extended fully. Undue elevator rod at the bellcrank and remove bolts that go through what Bigrenna just showed. When those alumium casting are raised up with horizontal touching the bottom of the vertical fin, the crack Bigrenna shows is easily visible with a mirror. The crack Bigrenna shows is almost visible just looking through the hole from the outside doing nothing.

185Midwest wrote:That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles.

MW

Care to share what Beegles issue with the QMI kit is?

Some are postulating that it has nothing to do with wheels, floats, skis, etc... (configuration) but more to do with in flight forces

I think tailwheel shimmy might have a big effect. Every time mine has shimmied, I thought, is this thing safe to fly again.

If this AD doesn't give you an excuse to finally pull the tail feathers off your bird, nothing will.

Forget the borescope.

I took the tail off my 170B more than a decade ago solely because it had never been off since new, and it was prudent to just look, clean things up, prime, and reassemble with new hardware (bolts, pulleys, etc...)

It's a nice feeling to know what's under there when you're bouncing around the sky with your family inside.

I hope y'all take Greg's advice and every one of you yank your C180/185 tails off and check things out carefully so none of you get hurt.

That sounds logical, Brian. Pawnee was tube and fabric but I noticed that Pawnees that had gone a long time without crash/rebuild would only turn one way well when slow ground looping to line the side loader up with the mixing unit. I think the side load leaned the tailwheel as the longerons were weakened by chemical. That may not be part of the problem with aluminum tailwheel empennage. I had a Luscombe that turned poorly one way and students kept breaking brake cable pulleys trying to swing the tail the bad way. It had the strengthing AD done but the #7 bulkhead had many patches and cracks as did the tailwheel interior bracing.

The larger and heavier crop dusters have massive tailwheel mounts/attachments as do nose gears.

corefile wrote:

185Midwest wrote:That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles.

MW

Care to share what Beegles issue with the QMI kit is?

About $3600 for the kit. Hockey sticks for Cessna are about $2500 each.

MW

Competition must have caused some price adjustments from 3 yrs ago when jrc111 worked on his 180. Remember how he bought a used hockey stick from Beegles but the holes didn't line up so he bought a brand new undrilled one for $5,400?????

Wow! Several years ago I got the whole #7 bulkhead for the Luscombe for a few hundred dollars from Univair.

185Midwest wrote:That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles. The Cessna replacement parts are about $2500 per side. It appears there will be a bit of time before Tailwheel Tom will get his STC......

I recall the same thing as Marty re price of (unsatisfactory) drilled hockey sticks vs undrilled hockey sticks.
The QMI kit is spendy, yes, but I thought it was & is a great innovative idea & that Bill will (& has) sold a lot of them.
I'm curious about what Tom Anderson is working on, is it a cracked-hockey-stick fix?

185Midwest wrote:That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles. The Cessna replacement parts are about $2500 per side. It appears there will be a bit of time before Tailwheel Tom will get his STC. I decided after thoughtful interaction with Beegles to go with the Cessna part and move on. I strongly feel as they, "Beegles" do some much work on the 180/185 that their opinion matters. I decided to err on the side of experience.

I'm not casting any judgment on TW Tom or QMI but relying on the judgement of those who know these airframes a lot better than I do.

MW

Other than price, what was their logic at Beegles with regards to the QMI fix being less than optimal?

slow18 wrote:

185Midwest wrote:That is one of the "hockey sticks" Kurt as I see. QMI kit is ok but needs work according to Beegles. The Cessna replacement parts are about $2500 per side. It appears there will be a bit of time before Tailwheel Tom will get his STC. I decided after thoughtful interaction with Beegles to go with the Cessna part and move on. I strongly feel as they, "Beegles" do some much work on the 180/185 that their opinion matters. I decided to err on the side of experience.

I'm not casting any judgment on TW Tom or QMI but relying on the judgement of those who know these airframes a lot better than I do.

MW

Other than price, what was their logic at Beegles with regards to the QMI fix being less than optimal?

Yes, I would very much like to know that as well.

It looked like a great repair to me. Better bearing surface for those rear pivots and it has an approval based on engineering.

It is pretty spendy, that’s for sure. But outside of hiring a DER or buying the Cessna parts what other solution is there?


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I was scheduled to have a the QMI kit installed on my plane this winter at Beegles. They have done one install of the kit and said they would not install another until there were some adjustments made to the kit. They sent me another quote with the original Cessna parts and the price was about the same.

I'd rather you all contact Beegles. I'm not an A&P so I'm not really qualified to give an technical answer on the subject. I'm just going with what they are telling me.

MW