My friend recently bought a PA22/20 (he is a member here so he will probably read this), he has 70hrs total time, no tail wheel yet.
Instructor is an older tailwheel pilot who now flies a Seneca but is very rusty in tailwheel, probably he will get it back soon.

What surprised me is he prefers to train my friend in a pavement runway instead of grass or gravel.
I really thought grass was better and more forgiving, we have a long grass runway perfect for it 30NM from our base airport.

Also surprised me he wants to start to teach with 2 point landing instead of three point.

Im no expert and only have like 3 hrs of tailwheel training, but always I was taught 3 point landing first.
Does it matter 3 point first or second to teach? and gravel or grass vs pavement?

I just think its odd.

Pavement will keep you honest in your directional alignment with the aircraft's track along the ground. Grass is easy by comparison.

As for which style landing, I don't see much advantage to learning one or the other first, as long as both are learned and practiced to competence.

Tell your friend to really over-insure the hull value of the airplane, and then go have fun.

Grass is where I want to be, but then again I'm not just learning. Grass allows sloppy flying, pavement does not. Start paved.

As far as the age old two point vs three point argument.... Who cares. He's gonna have to be proficient in both, and when he gets good, he'll be flying tail-low wheel landings most of the time anyway.

As a former owner of a PA-20/22, the main advice I can offer is slow the damn thing down and don't fly 70 kts approaches over the fence. And really make sure the gear is aligned properly. Mine was an 108 hp Colt, and it was an absolutely sweet, docile little taildragger. The guy I bought it from was terrified of the thing, but he was one of those kind of guys who thought he was going to die if he got the ASI below 80. He didn't fly it, he drove it.

Gump

If possible, I start em on grass, but 30 miles is a looooong way to go to practice landings. In any case, pavement is more demanding, and there's nothing wrong with starting them on pavement. He'll develop good skills from the git go.

The only down side is that pavement can kind of intimidate a new tailwheel pilot. Starting them on grass shows that the thing CAN be controlled, then once they've got the basic hang of it, transition to pavement.

As to three point or wheel landings, he needs to learn both. I teach three point first, because they're harder to pull off nicely. Once they've got that under control, we switch to wheel landings, and they'll love them, and never want to do three points again.....which is wrong because there are places and planes where three points are required.

Let them do wheel landings first, and they'll get lazy, and not want to do wheel landings. Both are necessary.

MTV

Thanks I forwarded this tread to him.
Nothing wrong with how's he going to be taught then.

You should master both 2 point and 3 point. I would probably start with 3 point and then transition to wheel landings. I would start on pavement then go to grass or off airport.

For later on, the smaller the tailwheel the better. Small tailwheels were on all older airplanes because they dug into the grass and helped keep the tail back there.

Like Gump, MTV, and Cary said, he will have to learn both types of landing. Wheel landings are easier and safer. You can see so much better, especially the poor instructor in the back of tandems. The main problem I see with wheel landings is that pilots don't slow down enough first. A wheel landing should be made at the same speed as a three point. With an engine idle spot landing practice, we almost three point and then level the airplane just before or just at touchdown. With the power/pitch approach, if slow, we can just drive it on tail slightly low and then level just before or just at touchdown. In both cases, just before or just at touchdown depends on the springiness of the gear.

The kissy part of the fast stabilized approach, round out, flair, and wait, wait, wait for touchdown is that we are flying in low ground effect during the long flair. It is just as easy to get down into low ground effect, at many airports, prior to the desired touchdown point and at just above stall speed. Now we can use power to maintain low ground effect flight until the desired touchdown point. Or we can use Patrick's stall down or my apparent rate of closure over the trees to still touch down on the beginning of the strip at slightly less than stall speed with power/pitch.

Power or ground effect or both can be used to kiss it on the spot every time. That assumes we are learning to fly well rather than learning to do what is expected on the flight test. Expectations, reflected in the PTS, are getting somewhat better.

As a new pilot that just did my ppl in a maule so the experience is quite fresh in my mind. I am glad I had the opportunity to start on grass, like Others have said it is waaaaay more forgiving and allowed me some time to gain a level of comfort with the aircraft and its habits close to the ground without scaring the living crap out of me......every time. It allowed me to get consistent and forgave my mistakes (kinda) then just when I thought I was doing really good, I went to pavement and found out otherwise! But at least I was comfortable enough in the plane to be able to react and correct well enough to fly out of it. If I would have had that landing experience right out of the gate I think it would have really shaken my confidence, instead it strengthened my resolve to get better......a lot better.

As far as 2 wheel vs. 3 wheel.......well I still suck at them both but am loving the journey to improve!

Just a rookies observations

GumpAir wrote:..............As far as the age old two point vs three point argument.... Who cares. He's gonna have to be proficient in both, and when he gets good, he'll be flying tail-low wheel landings most of the time anyway......

I question this. I've only done a handful of landings in Pacers so I'm not real familiar with what they "like", but have lots of time in t/w Cessnas. I wheel-landed my 170 probably about half the time. But my C150/150TD didn't like wheel landing as much as the 170, so I tended to three-point it. So far, all my landings in the month I've owned my 180 have been wheelers. The guy I bought it from as well as a lot of other 180 guys say you should always wheel it on. But another friend with a 180 always three-points it, and that seems to work just fine for him. I plan on getting proficient at those too as I get more comfortable in the airplane.
I tend to go along with what MTV said-- both are necessary, depending on conditions.

That's the nice thing about the C180/185 is how flexible they are. They really aren't fussy how you plant them on the ground.

I prefer tail low wheelies, just because when done right, it feels so sweet to roll the mains on and then push forward to pin things to the ground. And, I really don't want that itty-bitty tailwheel to be bouncing in the rocks, or, spinning around 20 times to the main's one, trying to keep up on pavement. It's easier on the whole thing to keep it in the air until you're ready to park it.

Gump

Hi everyone, I'm the guy learning TW on a Piper Pacer. I appreciate all your comments and recommendations. It has been a great learning experience, both, TW and the Pacer! Down here in Costa Rica there is literally only one certified TW instructor and he lives 2 hours from my home town.
My instructor is a guy (commercial pilot that flew DC3's and C46's back in the day, also Cessna s 180's) that had not flown a TW in more that 30 years, so all of you can imagine the picture of our first outing...me (never on a TW and only 70 hours on tricycle) and my instructor cleaning all his rust from 30 years+ of not flying one...
To make a long story short: We are both alive and the Pacer in one piece! and I'm landing three points on asphalt in a decent way all on my own!
He did started me on two points (wheel landings) but at first it's a psychological clash coming from a tricycle gear plane, so we did have a few close calls!
Now that three points are no drama, and after a bit more practice, I could come back and tackle the wheel landings.
Thanks all!

I just had my 4th flight hour of PPL training all in my 2001 Husky A1B. Its been the most fun and scariest time of my life all at once. I have a great instructor (recently retired 767 captain who owns a sky wagon and stays busy teaching in tailwheel airplanes and delivering sky wagons to their new owners) who is starting me out on a 3600x60' asphalt runway (CPU) with wheel landings. I just made my first two unassisted wheel landings (full stop) and feel like I just did something I was thinking I would never be able to do. My instructor told me in the beginning we would start on asphalt to get somewhat comfortable with the landings to full stop before we went over to O22 for some play on the grass strip. I have no idea which is better of course since I know next to nothing but Im 100% confident in my instructor and just trying to learn as much from him as possible. We started on wheel landings simply because his experience has shown him that new tailwheel pilots usually (not always) have a bit easier time learning directional control when you can see over the nose and better see runway alignment q's.

hotrod180 wrote:

GumpAir wrote:..............As far as the age old two point vs three point argument.... Who cares. He's gonna have to be proficient in both, and when he gets good, he'll be flying tail-low wheel landings most of the time anyway......

I question this. I've only done a handful of landings in Pacers so I'm not real familiar with what they "like", but have lots of time in t/w Cessnas. I wheel-landed my 170 probably about half the time. But my C150/150TD didn't like wheel landing as much as the 170, so I tended to three-point it. So far, all my landings in the month I've owned my 180 have been wheelers. The guy I bought it from as well as a lot of other 180 guys say you should always wheel it on. But another friend with a 180 always three-points it, and that seems to work just fine for him. I plan on getting proficient at those too as I get more comfortable in the airplane.
I tend to go along with what MTV said-- both are necessary, depending on conditions.

One thing to keep in mind with tailwheel Cessnas is that the axles on these airplanes are aligned using shims, and if those shims aren't installed such that the gear is properly aligned, you can expect some pretty "interesting" runway experiences.

That can vary from landings where you kind of wonder if the plane actually drifted one way or another, all the way to regular "Holy SHIT!" landings.

It's a PITAto align the gear, but if you've got a Cessna TD that seems to have a mind of its own, get the plane on grease plates, and get that gear aligned.

I've flown a couple that were plain ugly, and the owner was just gutting it out. A friend (and very experienced TW pilot) found out I owned a Cessna 170 and commented that those things are just flat ugly on the runway...... I scratched my head, then asked him how many 170s he'd flown....one. Aha! Took him out in mine, and he commented that the thing was the nicest handling taildragger he'd ever flown. I'm guessing the other one he flew had gear badly mis aligned.

MTV

mtv wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

GumpAir wrote:..............As far as the age old two point vs three point argument.... Who cares. He's gonna have to be proficient in both, and when he gets good, he'll be flying tail-low wheel landings most of the time anyway......

I question this. I've only done a handful of landings in Pacers so I'm not real familiar with what they "like", but have lots of time in t/w Cessnas. I wheel-landed my 170 probably about half the time. But my C150/150TD didn't like wheel landing as much as the 170, so I tended to three-point it. So far, all my landings in the month I've owned my 180 have been wheelers. The guy I bought it from as well as a lot of other 180 guys say you should always wheel it on. But another friend with a 180 always three-points it, and that seems to work just fine for him. I plan on getting proficient at those too as I get more comfortable in the airplane.
I tend to go along with what MTV said-- both are necessary, depending on conditions.

One thing to keep in mind with tailwheel Cessnas is that the axles on these airplanes are aligned using shims, and if those shims aren't installed such that the gear is properly aligned, you can expect some pretty "interesting" runway experiences.

That can vary from landings where you kind of wonder if the plane actually drifted one way or another, all the way to regular "Holy SHIT!" landings.

It's a PITAto align the gear, but if you've got a Cessna TD that seems to have a mind of its own, get the plane on grease plates, and get that gear aligned.

I've flown a couple that were plain ugly, and the owner was just gutting it out. A friend (and very experienced TW pilot) found out I owned a Cessna 170 and commented that those things are just flat ugly on the runway...... I scratched my head, then asked him how many 170s he'd flown....one. Aha! Took him out in mine, and he commented that the thing was the nicest handling taildragger he'd ever flown. I'm guessing the other one he flew had gear badly mis aligned.

MTV

When do you need to 3 point? I was out practicing some in the super cub today. Felt weird. And yes, aligning the gear in a 180 is a royal pain in the rear.

I like the tail low wheelie, just because it's easy. Easy to do, easy on the airplane if done right, and easy on the tailwheel as it doesn't come into play until you're pretty much stopped. But........

Came in the other day and wasn't paying much attention, and I didn't stick it real well so we skipped a couple feet up. Rather than try and salvage a wheel landing I just eased back on the elevator and made a nice three pointer out of it. It'd been a while since I'd done one, and it was a pleasant feeling at just how nice that little Cessna settled down on all three.

So, I went back up and did a handfull at different flap settings and speeds just because.

Gump

I've had the 180 about two months now, logged 15 or 20 hours in it, and 99% of my landings have been tail-low wheelers, with a grand total of one (count 'em-- one!) three-pointer. I do have to admit that it seems that wheel landings will work for most of the situations I find myself in. Like contact pointed out, approach speed for a wheel landing is the same as for a 3-point. I use about 70 mph on final, slowing down as I come over the fence. The difference is where you really start to pull for the flare for a 3-pointer, for a wheel landing I just gently pull and sort of feel for the runway with the mains. Not quite per the Bill White method, but it works for me. No floating which equals shorter landings, and although it feels weird at first you can really pinch on the binders right away with the tail still up- just counteract the braking with back pressure on the yoke.

GumpAir wrote:.... I didn't stick it real well so we skipped a couple feet up. Rather than try and salvage a wheel landing I just eased back on the elevator and made a nice three pointer out of it.....

Done that many a time in the 170. You can salvage a bounced wheel landing, but it requires timing the bounce and sticking the mains on with forward pressure just as they come down. This works well if you time it just right, if you don't it might get sorta ugly. It's usually easier to turn it into a 3-pointer as Gump describes.

I was a 300 hour Cherokee pilot when I started tail wheel transition training in a 1940 J3 Cub. Wheel landings were much easier for me at the start. It was exactly like landing my Cherokee. Flare just a little bit and feel for the runway with the mains. My instructor insisted full stall 3 point landings were the norm for a tail dragger though.

After 14 hours dual he signed me off for tail wheel. I then found a proficient kitfox instructor and got 10 hours dual from him in his kitfox. He had me make 3 point landings only.

Then I made the first flight in the kitfox I had built. It was extremely squirrley on take off and landing. I took it home and checked the alignment of the main wheels. The left was toed in about 1/2 inch measuring from front and back of the tires. After aligning the wheels to straight ahead at level attitude, that is tail up, and 1/4 inch toe in on each wheel tail down due to camber, it was easy to keep straight. If I don't pay close attention until it comes to a stop however, things can get out of hand in a hurry. Lets just say I am one of those that has ground looped...but I learned a lot from that.

Now 95 percent of my landings are 3 point because I prefer the airplane be stalled. I can't stall it with the tail up.

Gump,

Good to see you still posting. I have been away from the forum for some time. Haven't communicated with you in ages. Wife and I were in your area in Sept. with our camper.

The Maule and I are still having adventures.

z3skybolt(Bob)

Hey Bob. We're here and retired. PM if you need my contact info.

Gump