Yeah, your right Student Pilot. I thought the same thing too about the weight difference berween the Pacer and 180. But I think watching that Pacer bouncing all over the place had a pretty good pyschological effect on the 180 driver. But you know, I still admire the guy. You make the decision, suck it in, and say "I don't feel right about this. Need some more experience - call it a day"

You know that he knew that we would watch him taxi back. He didn't let his ego get in the way.

That is one thing that I have really come to understand about flying. There simply is no place for ego and judgement is KING. I kinda suspect that is why more people don't fly. It takes a pretty mature individual to reign in the first and practice the second.

I suppose whether I become more or less dubious with additional experience will have a lot to do with what that experience teaches me.

For right now, if someone told me they were going to take a Cessna 140 and do pattern work in a 20 knot x-wind blowing 90 degrees to the runway, I'd make a point of being there to watch. For my money that would be as good as any air show I've been to...maybe better, since the gut-churning roar of a 140 strikes fear into the hearts of even brave men.

ravi wrote: since the gut-churning roar of a 140 strikes fear into the hearts of even brave men.

I think your hanging round with the wrong crowd Ravi.

ravi wrote:maybe better, since the gut-churning roar of a 140 strikes fear into the hearts of even brave men.

Never have truer words been uttered.

The 180 may not have been better in that X-wind than the Pacer. The Pacer may be lighter, but the wing area is less resulting in (maybe?) a higher wing loading. If heavy anyways. Also smaller cross-section so less sail area for the Xwind to push on.

Eric

Well ok herer goes guys.. Last wed I flew my wife and I from Truckee to Columbia for a weekend fly in with folks from Gillespie here in San diego County. I was in Truckee for a family gettogether and left for Columbia about 12 or 1 in the afternoon. It was a short 1 hr flight in my M4 and approaching Columbia i heard a Sai Marchetti and a cherokee down wind for 17. I figured ok 17 it is and entered the pattern. On short final I spied the sock at mid field and it was pointed straight down 17. Fat and Happy I touched down doing one of the sweetest 3 points I have ever done. Starting to slow and all of a sudden she started veering right. Left rudder and no response. More left rudder and still veering right. Just about to touch the brake and wheels leave the runway and skid on the berm composed of 1to 2 inch rocks. She weather vanes around and the left wing digs in and we tweek the gear. After a hasty exit and standing next to the plane i noticed the sock at mid field straight down 17 but I now can feel about 10MPH wind hitting me in the face from the northwest. Lesson learned....... Land on the grass! (That would be 29 at Columbia) Anyway what I figure happened was as I slowed the 10 MPH wind from the rear right quarter was just too much, in addition to me being a rather new tail wheel pilot. So as we speek she sits in a hangar in Columbia, and I am going up a week from this Friday to pick her up and trailer home for repairs. OH, the best news is we weren't hurt and no prop strike. In addition I have to say that I have never met nicer people than I have at Columbia. Virtually everyone has gone out of their way to help and give us assistance and that includes Mark, and John from Reno. So that's my story and as embarrassed as I am I hope it helps others. Landing with a quartering tail wind is no joke. In hind sight I should have powered up and got the hell off the ground but let me tell you it happens very fast.

I'm (we are) very glad that you & your wife are all right and the plane is not banged up too bad. I'm sure you can have it flying again in no time.

Also thank you for sharing your story on, from what I read, as a good approach & landing gone bad.

One thing I'm a little confused about is you say that the wind was 170 straight down the runway. Where did the quartering tailwind come from? Was the windsock swinging.

Once again I need dispatchability And I have a lot of wind to deal with when I'm in the Dakotas so I think I'm going to be a nosepicker until I get a floatplane.

-Todd Giencke

I've been told by local pilots ,, and Mark can tell you more since he lives there, that the wind burbles over a hill in that area. I didn't notice the sock swinging but where we wound up it was definitely coming from the Northwest as we stood there. Also I was told that 4 planes had weathervaned at the same spot in the past. It is at the northern end of 17 between the vasi lights that we started to weathervane. The intersection of 29 is about half way down 17 and that is where the sock is. The sock gets unobstructed wind from the westand south.

Butch is right... The wind at Columbia is very fickle (although usually light and not a problem). In addition, the approach end of 17 sits behind some trees and a knoll and is somewhat protected. There is a wind sock right at the tanker base and it's not unusuall to see the wind sock and the tetrahedron pointed different directions as well as the awos saying something else. Also, Runway 17 runs downhill off a hump about 1/3 of the way down that tends to give you the feeling the ground is trying to drop out from under you.

The locals, flying taildraggers, will use 29 for most of the year and only abandon that runway when it gets too wet during the winter. The prevailing westerlies will normally favor 29. In addition the intersection of 29 and 17-35 can be hazzardous. When the wind gets shifty, you can watch the tetrahedron, at the intersection, swing from 170 - about 300 and back pretty quickly. Runway 29 has the benefit of hangars, trees and hill to the south that will lessen the influence of any southerly component at the touch down area, not to mention grass is sooo much more forgiving.

I rode my bike out to the area where Butch's beautiful M4 decided it had enough of the paved runway and it is a bit further north than I would have guessed. Most of the runway excursions happen a little more towards the intersection of 29 and 17-35. (BTW, Butch was able to miss the lights) I can say that last Friday afternoon (two days after Butch's incident) the wind was strong (10mph gusting to 15) and shifting. From what I hear, it was like that all week.

This incident completely reinforces my total hatred of pavement.

Mark

Mark, as a matter of fact I did take out a runway light. I advised the airport guy at the site that I would not leave without squaring away with them on the light. Two days later my wife Jean and I went to the office and offered to pay whatever it cost and we were told to just forget it. Again a testament to the wonderful people who live there. Maybe folks just get more human living away from the big cities. I offered to buy them lunch but they said I was too late that they all ate already. I'll take care of that when I go back. Anyway I'm still embarrassed and very depressed about it all. As I work each day I drive from Job to job and go over and over what happened and what I could have done or not done. I just don't know. I guess Jean is right. She says when it's fixed go out and practice, practice, practice. I'll keep you u all posted on things as this progresses. Thanks all for being there. Butch

Butch, I know exactly how you feel. I had a real close call, similar to yours, a couple of months ago that I shared here (Topic: Almost Put A Wing In). Felt like an absolute dummy for awhile. Makes you wonder if you should be flying.

Your okay. Your wife's okay. The plane can be fixed. Stuff like that happens. Kind of like getting rear-ended while you are making a left turn in your car. Keep flying - there is the joy!

Skystrider wrote:Butch, I know exactly how you feel. I had a real close call, similar to yours, a couple of months ago that I shared here (Topic: Almost Put A Wing In). Felt like an absolute dummy for awhile. Makes you wonder if you should be flying.

Your okay. Your wife's okay. The plane can be fixed. Stuff like that happens. Kind of like getting rear-ended while you are making a left turn in your car. Keep flying - there is the joy!

I'll take it one step further.

There's an old seafaring saying that goes "A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for"

Fly long enough and your going to ding something. I guess one alternative would be to sell your plane, take up crocheting and you'll never have to worry about a bent plane again.

I guess one alternative would be to sell your plane, take up crocheting and you'll never have to worry about a bent plane again.

That reminds me, I will have your scarf done before fall. Mostly pink is okay isn't it?

speaking of crosswinds and mighty roaring engines, I flew an Ercoupe for the first time last evening in a crosswind. Landing without rudder pedals and steering with the yoke only is WEIRD!

Skystrider wrote:

I guess one alternative would be to sell your plane, take up crocheting and you'll never have to worry about a bent plane again.

That reminds me, I will have your scarf done before fall. Mostly pink is okay isn't it?

As long as there's a leather helmet and goggles to go with it...

you guys are just great. Thanks a bunch...... Butch

Well the saga continues. Friday a good friend, Patrick Joyce, and I left El Cajon at 4:00 AM and started for Columbia in a rented 24 foot high cube truck from Enterprise. 9 and a half hours later we got to columbia and proceeded to load the aircraft from where it was at Aero Recources. Greg the Owner had the planes wings and elevator off and ready to go . Patrick and I spent the rest of the day loading and securing it every which way we could. Wings needed to be hung about one foot off the floor to allow room for the mains. If anyone needs to do this a 24 foot bed truck will take the M4 fuselage just fine. It measures 22 feet from spinner to rudder. I suppose you could take them off too and get shorter. We were offered a bed and shower by our new friends Casey Long and Donna. Casey lives in Angels camp and had stored our camping gear for us. We Had a great dinner at a restaurant in Murphys and returned to Caseys house to crash for the night. Sat. Donna insisted we have breakfast first so she was busy making breakfast burritos for us. We got a late start as Patrick figured another way to secure the fuselage from rolling forward. We cut two of the 2x12 boards to 73 inches the distance from the ski attach points to the front of the truck box and secured them with bolts through the boards and ski attach points. This formed solid stops against forward movement. Once this was done we started off for Sonora. As we were leaving the airport I got a cell phone call from Mark(N6ea) He was en route to Columbia and south of Sonora. We met up in Sonora and finally shook hands. Another new back country friend. All in all the trip home was uneventful and my kidneys will need time to repair from the rough ride. THis morning I'm off to the airport to unload and return the truck. And now the real work begins.......