lowflybye wrote:When the winds are stong enough to push a DC-3 backwards accross wet ground until it's tail is in a ditch all bets are off with regards to the light aircrft.

blackrock wrote:LFB,

This may be (is) a dumb question since I'm sure most of us can guess the answer, but how does an event like this affect rates for all of us?

blackrock wrote:LFB,

Regarding salvage, can anyone bid on totaled aircraft? I've wondered about picking up a "project" and would like to know more about how to go about bidding on salvage/recovery if you can share that info?

Thanks,
Mike

This may be a longer answer then you wanted, but I expect that they will go up in time. It will not be an immediate increase, but they have to go back up. The rates on light aircraft have been at the lowest point in history and well below the "burn rate" so losses like are possible from this event are unrecoverable for most policies. We really won't know the effects on the rates until the underwriting companies can total up the total cost of all the losses and this could take a while.

Some things that most outside the insurance world don’t realize:

- When a total loss is paid, the cost to the insurance company is not complete. For instance, any aircraft that is totaled at SNF will still have to be removed by a salvage shop and stored until sold for scrap, parts, etc. This is an additional cost to the company.

- There are ancillary coverages on the policies that will come into play whether it is a total loss or simply a damaged aircraft. Look in the policy section often titled "Broad Coverage Endorsement" where you will most likely find coverage to cover expenses for renting substitute aircraft and coverage for trip interruption providing for alternate transportation back to the home airport.

- When an aircraft sustains damage the repair and parts are not the only expenses. In the SNF case, aircraft that are not airworthy and cannot be ferried will have to be "recovered" by trucking them to a repair facility. With the extent of damage down there I will be surprised if there will be enough shops willing / able to make all the repairs in a timely fashion so some of these recovery cost will be high even though it happened on an airport. Once the aircraft is repaired, the insurance company still has to cover the cost to return the aircraft to the location of the loss or to the home airport, whichever is closer.

This is just the aircraft…the same companies that insure the aircraft also insure many of the manufacturers and vendors at the show as well as the show itself. In this case loss of revenue coverage will come into play along with other business coverage.

Having said all that, you can see how quickly a $1,000 annual policy can be used up before any actual repairs begin on an aircraft. The cost of airline tickets to get the stranded policyholder and passengers home can exceed the policy premium. I have many policies on aircraft that are below $1,000 for full coverage…very few are tailwheels, but there are a lot of spamcans that fall under the $1,000 mark. Off the top of my head, I would guess that the current average premium for light, single engine aircraft is around $2,000. It would take 159 at a $2,000 premium to cover just the loss of that Amphib Husky that happened to be listed on Controller for $ 318,000….and that does not take into account any of those aforementioned ancillary coverage costs. Let’s not even start thinking about the cost incurred on that Eclipse that had the pressure vessel punctured by the Zenith or the new Grand Caravan laying inverted with its back broken.

Like I said, this may be a longer answer than you wanted, but now you know (most of) the rest of the story.

obxbushpilot wrote:
WHAT? Are you telling me that the insurance companies barely make enough money from the premium to pay a claim?

This unique situation allows insurance companies to invest that money while it’s not being used. Huge profits can be reaped, or lost, as a result. This is exactly why Warren Buffet formed the Berkshire Hathaway Insurance Company…so he could generate capital to invest in the stock market.

In fact, insurance companies can knowingly charge too little for insurance policies and plan for an underwriting loss if they believe they can make a profit from investing the money they receive before having to pay claims. In the early 2000s, when the stock market was booming, this practice was taking place. On the flip side, insurance rates may be raised to make up for stock market losses."

This is the straight answer on why your premium will likely go up from this event.

lowflybye wrote:

obxbushpilot wrote:
WHAT? Are you telling me that the insurance companies barely make enough money from the premium to pay a claim? ...

Wow, so much for trying to help you fellows out with some information.

Yes, I am saying that insurance companies have been charging much less in recent years than it takes to pay the claims. I insured a $35,000 Cessna 172 the other day for full coverage at an annual premium of $487. Now, tell me how much your $35,000 car cost you every 6 months...and I guarantee that you don’t have $1 Million in liability on that car.

Of course insurance companies invest the capital that they have...how do you think they can afford to pay the claims, overhead, AND stay profitable? Insurance is not a charity, it is a business just like any other and exists to make a profit. In order to make a profit, like any other business, they have overhead to cover along with the potential claims. How do you suggest they cover this cost if they don't invest or keep a reserve? This is not a unique situation to insurance and banks, many businesses do the same thing...why do you think retirement plans take a hit when the stock markets go south?

When the lower premiums are taking place nobody complains about them…they are glad the companies can make the difference through investments. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Over the last few years the premiums have been decreasing to the point of record lows. Based on your expert opinion, please tell us the straight answer as to why this trend has continued when the stock market has also hit record lows not seen since the last depression? Also, please tell us why there are only 13 aviation insurance companies in the US if this is such a money making industry and we are all just crooks.

Let’s go one step further and take investing completely out of the picture. If the average premium on single engine, light aircraft policy is $2,000 and we insure 1,000 airplanes with an average value of $100,000 for that premium, tell me how much profit we will make if we only have 10% of the group sustain a total loss during the year. Let’s not even include any loss of life or expenses outside of the aircraft itself. If my math is correct the total premiums collected would be $2,000,000 and the claims paid would be $10,000,000. Where is this windfall profit that the crooks are absconding with? Where is the money going to come from to cover the propstrikes, hangar rash, injuries, lawsuits, etc. let alone the normal costs of doing business?

Look, I am a pilot and aviation lover first and an insurance agent second. I have been flying since I could see over the panel sitting on a phone book. My degree is in professional aeronautics / aviation management and I found a way to pay for my aviation addiction while helping fellow pilots by making my living for the past 10 years in the aviation insurance world. I was an underwriter prior to switching to the agency side and I did so to allow me more interaction with the end users…the pilots and the planes. If I felt like this was a crooked business then I would walk away from it, but the fact is that a proper insurance policy is a savior when it is needed…until then it is merely an expensive stack of papers representing a contract.

Now excuse me while I don my mask and return to robbing the poor to feed the rich.

Rooster Cogburn wrote:[

You can assume the claims for this event will be in the tens of millions of $$$, and the annual premiums for all damaged equipment will be in the hundreds of thousands of $$$. Correct me if I'm wrong LFB... Kind of a very bad day for aviation insurance industry.

lowflybye wrote:I have heard that at least 30 Vans Aircraft are damaged of which 10 are definitely total losses. Assuming these are valued at $100,000 each that is $1,000,000 in total losses not counting the repairs needed on the others. The Husky on amphibs was nearly $400,000 and rumor has it that the Zenith punctured the pressure vessel on that Eclipse which will run in the 6 figures to repair plus the total loss on that Zenith. Easily excess of $1,500,000 in hull losses just in those aircraft with total premiums combined on them of probably no more than $40,000 for the year. We insure that Grand Caravan on its back for a little over $2 Million value and it will most likely be totaled. There were multiple turboprops in the photos with other aircraft on them which will mean repairs and losses, not to mention all the damage that is not seen in the photos. Sun N Fun organization will have many claims themselves so I will not be surprised if the actual physical losses don't exceed $10 Million before any ancillary costs are added in.

Wow, so much for trying to help you fellows out with some information.

Yes, I am saying that insurance companies have been charging much less in recent years than it takes to pay the claims. I insured a $35,000 Cessna 172 the other day for full coverage at an annual premium of $487. Now, tell me how much your $35,000 car cost you every 6 months...and I guarantee that you don’t have $1 Million in liability on that car.

Of course insurance companies invest the capital that they have...how do you think they can afford to pay the claims, overhead, AND stay profitable? Insurance is not a charity, it is a business just like any other and exists to make a profit. In order to make a profit, like any other business, they have overhead to cover along with the potential claims. How do you suggest they cover this cost if they don't invest or keep a reserve? This is not a unique situation to insurance and banks, many businesses do the same thing...why do you think retirement plans take a hit when the stock markets go south?

When the lower premiums are taking place nobody complains about them…they are glad the companies can make the difference through investments. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Over the last few years the premiums have been decreasing to the point of record lows. Based on your expert opinion, please tell us the straight answer as to why this trend has continued when the stock market has also hit record lows not seen since the last depression? Also, please tell us why there are only 13 aviation insurance companies in the US if this is such a money making industry and we are all just crooks.

Let’s go one step further and take investing completely out of the picture. If the average premium on single engine, light aircraft policy is $2,000 and we insure 1,000 airplanes with an average value of $100,000 for that premium, tell me how much profit we will make if we only have 10% of the group sustain a total loss during the year. Let’s not even include any loss of life or expenses outside of the aircraft itself. If my math is correct the total premiums collected would be $2,000,000 and the claims paid would be $10,000,000. Where is this windfall profit that the crooks are absconding with? Where is the money going to come from to cover the propstrikes, hangar rash, injuries, lawsuits, etc. let alone the normal costs of doing business?

Look, I am a pilot and aviation lover first and an insurance agent second. I have been flying since I could see over the panel sitting on a phone book. My degree is in professional aeronautics / aviation management and I found a way to pay for my aviation addiction while helping fellow pilots by making my living for the past 10 years in the aviation insurance world. I was an underwriter prior to switching to the agency side and I did so to allow me more interaction with the end users…the pilots and the planes. If I felt like this was a crooked business then I would walk away from it, but the fact is that a proper insurance policy is a savior when it is needed…until then it is merely an expensive stack of papers representing a contract.

Now excuse me while I don my mask and return to robbing the poor to feed the rich.

denalipilot wrote:
I'm curious if valuation of amateur-built and experimental is cut-and-dry, when compared with, say, the nationwide fleet of C-172s. I suspect that the decision to total or not requires more of an expert appraisal in each and every case, and that a fair settlement may require more advocacy on the part of the owner-builder, and their broker?

-DP

obxbushpilot wrote:If I am wrong, then put your money where your mouth is and give me a quote. I have a 172 that's worth about $40k, but lets use $35k to keep it on par. I have 1200 hours as a private pilot with instrument rating and multi-engine rating. I fly about 75-100 hours per year and I own a hangar in NE NC where the plane is kept when I am not flying it and I have had no accidents, no claims and no FAA actions against me. Am I eligible for the premium that you are quoting the other guy or is this a less than real world example?

obxbushpilot wrote:

I frimly believe that the insurance industry are the worst crooks out there.

lowflybye wrote:

denalipilot wrote:
I'm curious if valuation of amateur-built and experimental is cut-and-dry, when compared with, say, the nationwide fleet of C-172s. I suspect that the decision to total or not requires more of an expert appraisal in each and every case, and that a fair settlement may require more advocacy on the part of the owner-builder, and their broker?

-DP

The insurance company can total an aircraft for any amount of damage, but they must pay you the agreed value as stated on the policy to do so...minus the deductible of course. They will usually work with the owner as much as possible, but it is ultimately their decision.

Stol wrote:
Thanks in advance for your well written answer as I am sure you will provide one...

And I am really sincere on my apology.... I owe you at least a few rounds of your favorite beverage... And I am willing to fulfill that at the JC fly in this year.

Ben.

qmdv wrote:Love folks that take shots at big business. They are the easiest to go after cus we have no idea as how they work. Pick on big oil, big drug companies, big insurance and big what ever. Our problems cannot be of our own doing so blame sombody else.

My favorite now are the folks that bought a 300 K house with the income of a McDonalds burger flipper and are now blaming big banking. You knew you could never make a payment but signed up anyway.

tim

Stol wrote:Hmmm. Those same "BIG businesses accepted the loan using that income data and cut a check to the "less then able ' to pay it back... So,,, Who is the bigger asshole ????

qmdv wrote:Love folks that take shots at big business. They are the easiest to go after cus we have no idea as how they work. Pick on big oil, big drug companies, big insurance and big what ever. Our problems cannot be of our own doing so blame sombody else.

My favorite now are the folks that bought a 300 K house with the income of a McDonalds burger flipper and are now blaming big banking. You knew you could never make a payment but signed up anyway.

tim