In a previous thread regarding the High Cost of Navigation, (maulepilots.org) there were comments suggesting that one was required to have either paper charts on board, or to have their TSO'ed Nav Sysyems up to date via the expensive subscription plans from either Jeppesen or Garmin to fly IFR. (Part 91)

In doing my research on this matter, I found the above to be false.

According to FAA Advisory Circular 91-78, it is up to the Pilot in Command as to whether he will utilize an EFB or Paper Charts.



Just to make sure that my interpretation of the regulations were accurate, I put the question to the FAA themselves.



As I fly the Maule in IFR quite often, it is nice to know that a reasonably priced program like ForeFlight is a 100% legal replacement for paper charts and approach plates, and that the very expensive (~$1000/yr) Jeppesen or Garmin subscriptions are not required.

Nice to have that in writing, certainly dispels some of the misinterpretations floating around. Your question aside, also nice to see positive engagement with and responsiveness from an FAA rep.

It is also nice to know that the iPad was tested and approved by the FAA for part 135 operators.

Good info Rob. Thanks for posting this!

I'm surprised by the friendly tone of the letter......nice to see that kind of response from the FAA.

I too asked this question a while back. I asked if an I Phone running ForeFlight could be used as a backup to an I Pad running ForeFlight. The answer was an unequivocal yes. Nice that one subscription to ForeFlight can be used on two devices, so....

Amazing, actually.

MTV

It is a bit refreshing to see such cordial correspondence.

For myself, keeping one 430W for the entire US up to date isn't all that expensive, compared to all of the other expenses of operating my airplane, as simple as it is. Can't recall the exact amount (don't have it on this computer) but it's around $400 for the updates for a year. So I keep both it and my FF subscription current. I don't do hard IFR, but I'd not like to have my panel GPS inconsistent with the FF, especially since the FF can't show GPS or ILS glideslope, although admittedly it's pretty close on localizer.

Cary

To clarify, and as per the above AC 91-78, this inquiry was only to determine if I could eliminate the Paper Charts & Approach Plates, if I had a Class A portable device (iPad) with a program like ForeFlight installed for IFR flight.

The answer, as stated above, is YES, I am no longer required to carry paper.

AC 91-78 does NOT state that you can use the EFB in lieu of required navigational equipment for IFR flight such as a CDI or WAAS enabled GPS for RNAV Approaches.

Just wanted to make sure it was clear................Rob

For part 91 in your Maule you don't need any charts, period. You won't find in the FAR's any requirement for charts. This has nothing to do with having an electronic device like an iPad.

MAU MAU wrote:

Bonanza Man wrote:For part 91 in your Maule you don't need any charts, period. You won't find in the FAR's any requirement for charts. This has nothing to do with having an electronic device like an iPad.

This thread is about IFR requirements, not VFR requirements.

While it is true that you are not required to have a VFR chart aboard for a VFR flight, (only reference it before flight) I think it would be quite foolish not to.

You ARE however required to have up to date charts for flight into IFR conditions.

If you have any factual data supporting your statement, I am always willing to learn.

Just to make things more murky.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/in ... ticle=5846

Just got off of the phone with the AOPA legal department, and amazingly enough, Bonanza Man is correct.

There are no regulations requiring a Part 91 VFR or IFR flight to carry ANY charts on board, unless you are a large and multi-engine turbine or fractional ownership. FAR 91-503 sub part F.

I certainly learned something today....................Rob

According to the AOPA ASF article, for part 91, you're not required to have current charts unless you need one and you screw up because you don't have it. What are the odds of that happening? Not zero, in my experience. But then, I'm not perfect.

CAVU

My question to the FAA had to do with our operations under Part 141. Under part 91, BM is correct.

That said, if you were to be dumb enough to actually fly under IFR without any form of charts, AND you managed to screw up....like wrong altitude/heading, etc, resulting in an altitude/airspace bust, you can be assured that the Flight Standards Division would violate you under the "failure to do right clause" otherwise known as FAR 91.3.

And if that charting methodology turned out to be out of date, or otherwise inaccurate, you'd still be hosed.

So, while it's true you aren't required to carry charts with you on an IFR flight, I promise you the FAA will make a big deal out of that during your hearing. Ie: You'd be totally hosed.
MTV

Ah yes, the dreaded dangerous and wreckless catchall clause.
At any rate the one thing that is not legal is flying with out of date charts whether IFR or VFR or databases when IFR.

porterjet wrote:At any rate the one thing that is not legal is flying with out of date charts whether IFR or VFR or databases when IFR.

The first part is not true either. The FAA many years ago said it is OK to have out of date charts, figuring it is better that you have some type of chart than no chart. However if you ever have an issue and that problem was caused by you having wrong info on that out of date chart then that won't go well. Your second part may or may not be true, that depends on the AFM for your particular GPS. Most GPS's allow you to use expired data if you verify if it is correct or not.

Here's one of those stupid things my buddy did--you know, the guy that looks at me in the mirror in the morning. Flight in a 231 Mooney from Laramie to Pocatello. Thought all the charts were in the Jepp book, since I'd (oops, buddy) had put them there, but didn't check before take off. In western Wyoming, pulled out the Jepp book and found no Idaho plates at all (found out later, my pard in our TR 182 Skylane had pulled all of the Idaho approach plates in preparation for his own flight, and instead of picking just the plates he knew he needed, it was easier to pull all of Idaho--but he had left the L11 chart). By now, Pocatello was only half an hour away, with 3/4 of the flight done. Admitted the problem to PIH tower and asked if he had the ILS plate in the tower. He did, and he talked me (oops again, buddy) through the approach--relatively easy, broke out at about 500' AGL

Ramifications? When the passengers were picked up by their grandparents, the first thing was to use the FBO's copier and copy all of the PIH approach plates. Upon calling ground to taxi out IFR back to Laramie, ground asked if there were approach plates aboard. (Sheepishly): "Yessir." "Standby--clearance on request." Really--that was it--other than learning well the lesson never to take off IFR ever again without making sure that all of the appropriate charts and plates were in the airplane.

Cary

Apologies in advance for the drift. Here's a VFR example: a few years back I was on descent into Redmond when I took a closer look at the new K Falls sectional I'd just picked up a couple hours earlier. I thought to myself "Say, why is the airport blue, and what's that dashed circle around it now? Son of Gun! They went and got themselves a Control Tower!" I was about a minute away from calling Unicom for advisories and had been planning on making the usual calls in the blind on CTAF. Lazy? Yes. Having that new chart open and sitting in my lap saved my butt. I've also noticed identifiers changing over the years, which can make things interesting talking with ATC if you don't know the current ID for your destination.

CAVU