I'm writing this down to prime a knowledge base article, which I hope will be picked up by an experienced heli pilot who can run with it. But I'd also like to invite any active [heli] pilots we have to make use of this new subforum.

I have to admit, I'm pretty enamored with helicopters, despite being slightly fearful of their complexity. Perhaps far down the road when flying my fire-breathing Bearhawk becomes blasé, I will get my rating. But when I think about that, I think: What would that look like-- life as a PPL heli pilot? Most of the helicopters I would be interested in owning (could afford) are 2-seat piston-powered machines. That means useful load is likely terrible. And where is the cargo area? It's the ultimate machine for backcountry access, but what can you take with you?

It takes money, a lot of it. Far more than flying fixed wing by my estimate, for both buy-in and operational costs. Most light helicopters available to consumers are piston-engine-powered, and in that space there exists no shortage of opinion from pilots, owners, and mechanics as to the reliability and safety of light helicopters for a few reasons:

1. Many utilize aviation piston engines, which while very reliable, do not compare to the reliability of turbine engines which enjoy ubiquity in the working helicopter market.

2. Rotor mass is much less, resulting in less rotational inertia, which I understand can make autorotations a little more tricky.

3. Various engineering methods for drivetrain of tail rotor, main rotor, etc.

4. The narrow CG envelope

There's a short list of certified light helicopters, and a longer list of EAB kits. The market just seems quite small, despite the fact that it's the flying car the future promised.

Let's look at certified birds:

1. The venerable Robinson R22 - Lycoming-powered, 2-seat classic trainer, max gross: 1,370 lbs
2. Schweizer S300 - Lycoming-powered, 2-seat classic trainer, max gross: 2,050 lbs
3. Guimbal Cabri S2 - Lycoming-powered, 2-seat, Fenestron tail, max gross: 1,543 lbs

4-seat options rise steeply in cost, so other than the R44, I'm not sure it's worth mentioning.


And the experimental homebuilt kits:

1. CH77 Ranabot - Rotax 912/914 powered, 2-seat, side-by-side
2. CH77 Kompress - Rotax 912/914 powered, 2-seat, tandem
3. Mosquito XE (single seat)
4. Safari(2-seat, Bell 47 lookalike)
5. Rotorway Exec and A600 (they manufacture their own proprietary engine)


And the experimental homebuilt kits that utilize a turbine:

1. Konner K1/K2 proprietary turbine engine, 2-seat, side-by-side
2. Eagle R&D Helicycle (single seat)
3. Mosquito XET (single seat)

And then there are models you encounter on Youtube that you can't even identify, like this coaxial rotor thing. My friend Kerry, who is a commercial helicopter pilot, insists those are deadly because they are nearly impossible to autorotate but I've found countering opinions that claim they can autorotate fine if the rotors are rigid and there is forward airspeed. Fascinating.

/end stream of bullshit, initialize inspiring photos >

Guimbal Cabri G2 (certified) - they teach in these out in Chehalem OR

Konner K1

CH77 Ranabot

CH77 Kompress

Safari kit helicopters

Mosquito XET

Helicycle from Idaho

Brantley B2B's seem affordable (as a heli goes), although they don't have the looks of the ones you posted. I think they have about 600lb useful, or 400lb after you fill up with gas. For me, that means a passenger of 125lbs and 50lbs of cargo. So not the greatest utility.

Max level speed at S/L: 100 MPH - 87 kts - 161 km/h
Cruising speed: (75% power) 90 MPH - 78 kts - 145 km/h
Max rate of climb at S/L: * 1,400 ft/min - 427 m/min
Service ceiling: ** 6,000 ft - 1,800 m
Hovering ceiling IGE: * 3,525 ft - 1,074 m
Range w/ reserve: 200 miles - 174 nm - 322 km
Total fuel: 31.0 USGAL - 117 liters
Useable fuel: 30.6 USGAL - 116 liters
* Max gross weight, 15ºC, dry air
** 200 ft/min, Standard Day

Engine:
Lycoming IVO-360-A1A
Power at S/L: 180 hp - 134 kW
Empty weight: 1,070 lbs - 481 kg
Max takeoff weight: 1,670 lbs - 757 kg
Max baggage weight: 50 lbs - 22.7 kg
Occupancy: 2; 1 pilot, 1 passenger

Ugly as sin and not super useful... but cheap.

Zane,

The manufacturer who sells more general aviation aircraft than any other is.....Robinson Helicopters. I think I read a year or two ago that Robinson actually certified more general aviation aircraft that year than ALL the other manufacturers of certified AIRCRAFT, which includes airplanes and helicopters.

Their biggest seller of late has been the R-44, but a lot of folks have learned to fly helicopters in the R-22. A friend who owns a very busy helicopter company in Alaska, and who does animal capture work all over Alaska and the lower 48 got his start flying an R-22, and his favorite helicopter still is the R-44. He owns an MD-500 now in addition to several R-44s, but only because he needs the altitude performance capabilities of the turbine in the Western Rockies for capture work.

Buddy Woods once landed a Hiller 12 with a Soloy turbine conversion near the summit of Denali (landed at 19,800 or so) to rescue some climbers.

Hiller 12, even with the original engine, is a great helicopter.

MTV

A buddy of mine with more money than some lesser gods started down the helicopter road. The costs are staggering, even for a silly little piston Robinson. Insurance for the first year was over $35,000 on a $650,000 hull value. And the ten-year factory overhaul, mandatory regardless of hours, made simply possessing the helicopter more expensive than flying his five other airplanes.

He was in a position to essentially have the entire expense deducted as a tax write off...it wouldn't "cost" him a dime, though all that money would be unavailable for other work-related improvements. He was a fair ways into his rating when he decided to abandon the pursuit. The little ones were just too limited for what they cost, and the big ones were so fantastically expensive that even he couldn't stomach the numbers.

He offered to put me though helicopter school with him, but I didn't take him up on it...In part because I didn't feel good about accepting that large a gift, and in part because the rating wasn't going to do me a damn bit of good. If I was young enough to take that start and chase it into employment it would be golden, but I'm not, and while I guess I could afford to fly a helicopter for a few years, I'd just never spend my money that way. Flying helicopters, like flying jets, is what you do for someone else.

Now if someone handed me a couple hundred million dollars, I'd buy a Hughes MD 500 before the check was even deposited. If it happens, I'll let y'all know.

Add the Enstrom F-28 to the "cheap" certified birds.

Enstrom F-28F - Lycoming-powered, 3-seat, max gross: 2,600 lbs

http://enstromhelicopter.com/helicopters/piston-f-28f-280fx/

One of the later Bell 47's

There are turbo and supercharged models.

http://www.scottsbell47.com/models.html

http://www.heli-archive.ch/en/helicopters/in-depth-articles/bell-47g3b-1/

Interesting read: Helicopters in the high country: 40 years of mountain flying

Ever since I watched the pilots work their bell 47s at a wild horse gather I've wanted to build an experimental 47. I figure if guys can still take a PA18 frame and turn it into an experimental the I'd think someone could do the same with a 47.

You really can't go wrong with the R44.... There are many folks that say the Robbies are dangerous but they don't know what they are talking about. Any helicopter or airplane, balloon, glider, etc. can be dangerous if the aircraft is not respected and flown within its parameters/limitations. Lots of operators (esp. in AK) are using the R44 with great success. Low cost of operations means more profitability. They are super reliable and parts are readily available. The only thing i don't like is the 12 year or 2200 hr lifespan... you will be rebuilding it (with a Robinson supplied rebuild kit) at 2200 or 12 years, whichever comes first. Resale value is good on them. Its a great stable platform that is good for training hence the intro of the R44 Cadet which in my opinion was built to eventually replace the R22. The 44's have great inerta for autos... i would compare it to the legendary Bell 206 in terms of rotor inertia. Engine is reliable as well. They are derated so they really arent run hard to the max... haven't seen aN NTSB report on a robbie engine failure in a long time (haven't checked in a while either!!!)

I've flow the Bell 47 and its awesome. My former coworker just sold his due the high cost of insurance... they were doing flight instruction and rides at the local county fairs which significantly increases insurance.

I've also flown the Enstrom. Very stable platform as well. Only got an hour in it and that was last year. First time I had flown a piston helo in many years since moving up to the turbine world.

If I had the cash i would love to buy one but I would rather spend it on a Carbon Cub or BCSC Rev 2!

If you are on instagram or youtube, check out Bradley Frissen's stuff... awesome vids. Flightchops just did a cool video with him as well.

Zane,

My 2 cents, there is a very good reason many of us fly helicopters for a living and fly airplanes for personal use. The best way to afford a helicopter is to work it. You must have very deep pockets to have one for fun. Just think about when Robinson issued blade AD's, that's a big surprise bill to get costing more than many airplanes. They are a pure joy to fly and it's amazing what you can do with them, but they are very expensive.

One experimental not mentioned previously is the Hummingbird, based on a 50's Sikorsky. It has several seconds of collective, as opposed to the R22, which has about 1.5 potatoes. If I was a little richer and younger, that's the way I'd go!

http://vertical-aviation.com/hummingbir ... elicopter/

BTW, flying helicopters when everything is working, is great! I still have fond memories of platform landings with the ASI reading 30+ kts (I have a rotorcraft PPL). But an actual auto to a full stop without a headwind is no fun in a R22 (hint - you're moving kind of fast when you touchdown).

York seems to have a good time in his R66.

https://www.instagram.com/iflyheli/?hl=en

Some (wealthy) friends of mine have helicopters, they cost a lot of money to buy, maintain and operate. I learned on an R22, then worked it on a contract for a summer spending most of the time in dead man's curve. Piston engine never bothered me. I instructed on both it and the Bell 47. R22 was cheaper, Bell 47 the better trainer. I'm with pathfinderheli, I fly helicopter professionally, my own airplanes for fun. I guess I'm not that wealthy.

For a private helicopter now I'd get a mid-time R22. You have to be willing to time the buying and selling so that you do not end up with a low hour airframe needing a calendar overhaul. Buy used, fly it, when within some years of overhaul flip it back to a school or operator that can burn the time off before calendar expiry. With a little more budget get the R44, with a lot more get the B206. Payload numbers are not that meaningful, everything is a compromise with endless factors to consider beyond just a number. You can be overgross and just fine, or under and crash.

Interesting Topic. It seems very deep pockets required .

If I were in the market for a light helicopter for private use, it would more than likely be a Schweizer 300C. They don't get quite the overhaul life of a CB, but in my experience they perform exceptionally well for what they are... I flew one across Canada a few years ago for a friend that bought one for private use, and it was actually a pretty good experience. They aren't fast... I never wanted to fly over highways as it was a little depressing watching how fast cars passed us.

We had a cargo rack on the side which held a couple backpacks, a case of oil, and a jerry can of avgas. You can put the racks on either side, or both. Full fuel, 2 fat guys, cargo, and about 25 degrees C and it still got up and went (from anywhere flat and long haha).

Now, I've since flown that helicopter around the mountains a bit, and you certainly need to have some skills to get into anywhere that a supercub can't go... or you need to be solo or very mindful about what you pack, including fuel. Once through translation its not too bad, but if you need to vertical out of a tight hole, and you're heavy, hopefully you scouted a big field on your way in that your buddy can walk too . If the RPM dropped even a little while you were trying to vertical out a tight-high spot, you were dropping right behind it.

Jet rangers are excellent value right now. 250-300 USD will get you one in todays market with enough time to last a private guys years. Air wolf makes 36 month straps now, which save a guy a little money. Not much more money than a 44, and a way better aircraft in my opinion. If you're a smart shopper (and if you're not - HIRE ONE) you can probably budget your annuals around 10-15K per year.

Private guys seem to love the MD500, and I personally don't have much experience with them, but I do know they cost about as much as an A-Star to maintain, I'd guess an extra $100-150 per hour over a Bell 206 for maintenance costs, but thats just a guess.

As for experimentals, I've never flown one, or been in one, but I spent a lot of time lurking around the Rotorway forum over the years, and I think a guy would be far better off to build one than buy someone else problems. However, if you are a savvy mechanic i've seen some of them sell for very cheap.

Its great to see some new players releasing aircraft for the light and training market like the Cabri B2. Good looking aircraft. It will be interesting to see how popular they become. However, in the words of many old helicopter pilots... 'Don't ever fly the A model of anything'.

Kitfox5 hit the nail on the head - Unless you have the means, let someone else pay the bills.

I dunno, it seems like if you're willing to build, you can have a lot of fun for relatively little (ha!) money.

These Helicycles are kit builds from Nampa, Idaho. It appears there are quite a few flying.

https://youtu.be/CFUqcmcUdw4?t=231

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0PcbJGi7Sg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ37CyF6zDU

One dude's build video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOJlmDPEPg

Seems like a good activity for an future old man me where me kids have gone off to do their own thing and single seat is okay.

Isn't the helicycle the one that the guy from Rotorway have something to do with??
JH

As complicated and mechanically intensive as helicopters are, the home-built option fills me with a dark fear.

My first coroners investigation was of a pilot who's experimental helicopter crashed into a house. Main rotor came off in flight...something about the Jesus Nut is what I heard.

That guy was dead so many ways that the medical examiner was at a loss to define the cause of death. He wasn't decapitated, but his head was busted open and you'd need a mellon baller to get a bit of brain out of the stem area. His heart was disconnected and ruptured, as were his lungs. Liver, spleen and pancreas were ruptured. His legs were broken into so many pieces that they looked like the bones were made out of chain. He'd been on fire for a while, so there was that. The only piece not really burnt was a small piece on his ass where he'd been sitting on a wallet.

Interesting side note...attending that autopsy didn't make me quit flying, but it did make me quit riding street bikes. It was the legs. I kept looking at those legs and thinking "you could have those legs and still be alive...slow speed T-bone on a motorcycle...that'd do it." Never road my street bike again and quickly sold it.

A somewhat funny side note...when I got to the crash site another deputy was there yelling "Fuck Fuck Fuck". Turns out he was in the process of closing on that very same house.

Anywhoo...folks who fly experimental helicopters are braver than I am.

Hammer wrote:That guy was dead so many ways that the medical examiner was at a loss to define the cause of death.
...
Anywhoo...folks who fly experimental helicopters are braver than I am.

As opposed to the unfortunate souls who've been turned into jelly at the controls of a MD500 or the like?

Qualifying airworthiness by the degree of carnage is a bit of a data type mismatch in my opinion-- dead is dead, and the energy it takes to rupture your mortal saltwater bag and whip it into a mousse flambé can be achieved in any number of certified classics or daring experimentals.

Now when you're talkin Jesus bolts, that's something we can sink our teeth into.

Zzz wrote:

Hammer wrote:That guy was dead so many ways that the medical examiner was at a loss to define the cause of death.
...
Anywhoo...folks who fly experimental helicopters are braver than I am.

As opposed to the unfortunate souls who've been turned into jelly at the controls of a MD500 or the like?

Qualifying airworthiness by the degree of carnage is a bit of a data type mismatch in my opinion-- dead is dead, and the energy it takes to rupture your mortal saltwater bag and whip it into a mousse flambé can be achieved in any number of certified classics or daring experimentals.

Now when you're talkin Jesus bolts, that's something we can sink our teeth into.

Oh I agree...the level of death was just objectively interesting.

But the number of rapidly moving and highly stressed parts needed to keep the helicopter aloft is vastly greater than on a fixed wing aircraft. I think it's simply beyond the means of an owner-builder-operator to maintain that complex infrastructure in such a manner that I'd trust my life to it.

I've spent hundreds of hours as a passenger in certified helicopters and never felt uneasy, and they do come apart on occasion. When they do, the results to the people inside them are every bit as dramatic as to the fellow I watched being autopsied. But I'd never fly in an experimental helicopter. No doubt some of that is my ignorance and/or prejudice towards the medium, but a big part of the ridiculous expense of certified helicopters is the redundant safety measures. Removing those in the name of financial expediency is not something I'll stake my life on.

Others will, and that's fine. For them.

Great to see so many rotary pilots coming out of the closet, I figured it might have been taboo to talk about rotary on here.
I trained in the Robinson which is a pretty popular rotary platform over here.

And Hammer, this may strengthen your resolve....
Just little things like the Jesus nut done up [emoji15][emoji15][emoji15]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BLfJwGqhr6U/