contactflying wrote:MTV,

Your mention of the danger of animal capture in reference to tcj's Loach (Hughes 369/500) crash reminded me, "The LZs marked by the burning Loach.

Lew Jennings in, "Nineteen Minutes to Live, " which you recommend to me by PM, gave a lot of statistics on Vietnam. We lost about 5,000 of 12,000 helicopters and ten percent of the crews. Cobras lost 30 percent, Hueys 47 percent, and the OH6-A Loach 80 percent.

The amazing thing about the Loach was the airframe shape and survivability. We lost no more crews in it than other helicopters. Blade strike was very common but few were shot up by the Torque (gunner on the floor with feet out behind pilot.) It was very helpful that eye to target line was about the same angle for pilot and gunner. All turns were to the right.

In my experience, the really important thing that is usually absent in a homebuild is crash survivability.

I had a friend who did two tours flying an OH 6 in the pink teams. He said if you’ve gotta crash, do it in an egg......the OH-6 fuselage. He had some experience in that.

MTV

We gunneys loved our little friends. We did the office work, recording their spots, communicating with the Blues and artillery and FACs, and providing covering fire, but they were the reason our squadron patch said, "The boldest cavalrymen the world has ever known."

I don't know if the Hiller UH-12 got a mention, but there are a few out there from time to time for sale. I got to briefly fly one years ago that had been acquired from some goofball doing gold prospecting in Oregon so it was literally a backcountry aircraft. Wood blades originally so they need to be replaced eventually.

A real backcountry turbine ship that comes to mind is the Aerospatiale Alouette. They used to be an affordable turbine helicopter, but I seem to remember someone telling me that the FAA either did, or tried to rescind the airworthiness certificates at some point. Since they were never certified in the US, they were either issued Experimental Exhibition or Restricted category COAs.

You can also pick up OH-58's from time to time. These are going to be Restricted or Exhibition as well, but they usually have things like high skids and bubble windows that would make them fun in the backcountry.

All of those can be bought for around the price of a Carbon Cub.

PilotMikeTx wrote:
All of those can be bought for around the price of a Carbon Cub.

I understand there are several helicopters that can be bought in that price range. I always dreamed of owning/flying a helicopter but never in my wildest dreams has it happened. I think the problem I always figured out was the operating costs and maintenance are the killer!

Its only been mentioned slightly, but insurance is a major factor in the cost of operation. Not just the hull, but liability. I'm sure its the same ratio now, but back in the mid to late 60s, I flew some part time for a guy with a G model Bell (with a Franklin and wood blades) and we had a tough time making payments each month. I remember that the insurance payments and the loan payments for helicopter were almost equal.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a helicopter for personal use that is affordable to own and operate. I've been in the helicopter industry for about 8 years now and in my opinion the best way to be able to use a helicopter for fun is to put it to work as it's main job. Then fly it off of the profits. There are too many expenses associated with flying a heli. You will constantly be throwing money at it. Unless your into that sort of thing I guess. Also I would never get an uncertified helicopter. My 2 cents on that.

Second thought would be the airframes you presented. You will be extremely limited on where and how you can operate with a 2 seat piston helicopter. Its really really easy to get yourself into trouble. Low time heli pilots know just enough to get into bad situations and not enough to get out of them. And that doesn't matter what airframe your in. You could have a high performance turbine helicopter but if you're not situationaly aware and properly trained, it usually doesn't end well.

All that said though. Helicopters are absolutely amazing marvels of machinery. I would suggest that if you want to fly them to make it a career. Then once you have the experience and knowledge, take on the dream of using one for fun. Hope this helps!

Cheers.

I agree that they require a commercial operation that airplanes cannot accomplish or an owner with that kind of money. Uncle Sugar can afford to replace parts long before they wear out. Lots of moving parts. All, save engine, will likely kill you if they wear out before they are replaced.

I flew helicopters in the Army and tired airplanes crop dusting and patrolling pipeline. I was crazy enough to fly junk, but only junk that had a hard time killing me. Airplanes just didn't have enough moving parts to get me. A little bailing wire and duct tape will get you to a workable landing zone.

heli_adams wrote:... I would never get an uncertified helicopter...

...You will be extremely limited on where and how you can operate with a 2 seat piston helicopter. Its really really easy to get yourself into trouble. .

I'm going to channel my 3 year old right now, and ask... "but, why???"

Uncertified: I guess as an experimental guy, I'll need some better justification of this statement. Is it the design? Engineering? Parts manufacturing process? The requirements for maintenance interval? The general mentality of wanting less regulation being indicative of recklessness? A categoric generalization doesn't help much, even if it turns out to be a good decision for many.

2-seat piston capability: Doesn't this depend on the engine and the airframe? Power, empty weight, loading, etc...all variable and tough to generalize performance for. For instance, the CH77 Ranabot is 200 lbs lighter empty than the R22. Turbine powered models are certainly more attractive, like the Helicycle, but they are single seat.

I'm all about experimental aircraft. However, when it comes to rotorcraft I personally believe there is just too much risk.

#1 reason: Design and engineering. I'm sure that some of these exp. helicopters have great designs, but they have no standard or regulation to uphold to that I'm aware of other than proving that it can fly. With rotorcraft there is 0 margin for design error. Sure they go through there own r&d but real issues may not show up for thousands of flight hours. One scissor link, pitch link, rod end, or gear failure, and that's it. There are ALOT of AD's on certified aircraft as a result of unfortunate incidents. These may not show up for many years. Robinson was certified in 1992 and has a M/R blade AD from 2018. Again, my opinion here, so take it for what it's worth, but I simply believe there is not enough reputation or regulation for these machines for me to feel comfortable flying my friends and family through the mountains in.


Now, when it comes to performance, it really depends on what you want to do with it. If you want a helicopter I assume you want to do helicopter stuff...land on pinnacles, rocks, ridges, etc. Any helicopter can get in and out of a backcountry airstrip. But why get a helicopter if you're going to use runways. A good standard when it comes to performance is to go by the helicopters HOGE chart. (Hover out of ground effect) If the chart says it can do it, and you're comfortable, it's worth a shot. But you will find that if you want to land on a ridge in the mountains, you will need to be by yourself, with low fuel and low temps. The reason I use the HOGE chart for stuff like that is because on some of theses landing spots you may or may not be completely in ground effect. Steep ridges and rocky terrain makes the air do some funny things under a helicopter. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done safe? Yes. I believe helicopters can be much safer than airplanes. Is it worth it? Yes. Will you have any money left? Depends. Which brings me to the next question. Is it affordable?

A relative question obviously but as stated before, there are alot if costs involved. Robinson publishes their operating costs but take that with a grain of salt. The Cabri also does the same and they are building up quite the reputation with a high level of safety and a number of on condition parts. I have about 100hrs in them and they are definitely a fun little helicopter. But its going to cost you about $375k to get your hands on one. Again, affordable being completely relative to the individual.

Hope this helps, I plan on doing some fun helicopter videos soon. Check out my IG @heli_adams for some pictures and content coming soon that's hopefully fun to watch and educational for all you backcountry crazies on here

I picked the R44 , instead of the R22, because we (wife and I) needed a bit more GW and luggage. The hydraulics make it literally a dream to fly also. Everyone here in Southern California loves the R44, that I have met. Great little ship. Will get certified as a mechanic later this year at factory in Torrance, CA.

heli_adams wrote:I'm all about experimental aircraft. However, when it comes to rotorcraft I personally believe there is just too much risk.

#1 reason: Design and engineering. I'm sure that some of these exp. helicopters have great designs, but they have no standard or regulation to uphold to that I'm aware of other than proving that it can fly. With rotorcraft there is 0 margin for design error. Sure they go through there own r&d but real issues may not show up for thousands of flight hours. One scissor link, pitch link, rod end, or gear failure, and that's it. There are ALOT of AD's on certified aircraft as a result of unfortunate incidents. These may not show up for many years. Robinson was certified in 1992 and has a M/R blade AD from 2018. Again, my opinion here, so take it for what it's worth, but I simply believe there is not enough reputation or regulation for these machines for me to feel comfortable flying my friends and family through the mountains in.


Now, when it comes to performance, it really depends on what you want to do with it. If you want a helicopter I assume you want to do helicopter stuff...land on pinnacles, rocks, ridges, etc. Any helicopter can get in and out of a backcountry airstrip. But why get a helicopter if you're going to use runways. A good standard when it comes to performance is to go by the helicopters HOGE chart. (Hover out of ground effect) If the chart says it can do it, and you're comfortable, it's worth a shot. But you will find that if you want to land on a ridge in the mountains, you will need to be by yourself, with low fuel and low temps. The reason I use the HOGE chart for stuff like that is because on some of theses landing spots you may or may not be completely in ground effect. Steep ridges and rocky terrain makes the air do some funny things under a helicopter. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done safe? Yes. I believe helicopters can be much safer than airplanes. Is it worth it? Yes. Will you have any money left? Depends. Which brings me to the next question. Is it affordable?

A relative question obviously but as stated before, there are alot if costs involved. Robinson publishes their operating costs but take that with a grain of salt. The Cabri also does the same and they are building up quite the reputation with a high level of safety and a number of on condition parts. I have about 100hrs in them and they are definitely a fun little helicopter. But its going to cost you about $375k to get your hands on one. Again, affordable being completely relative to the individual.

Hope this helps, I plan on doing some fun helicopter videos soon. Check out my IG @heli_adams for some pictures and content coming soon that's hopefully fun to watch and educational for all you backcountry crazies on here

Good response. Thanks.

Post your pics and vids here...what's Instagram?

Zzz wrote:

heli_adams wrote:I'm all about experimental aircraft. However, when it comes to rotorcraft I personally believe there is just too much risk.

#1 reason: Design and engineering. I'm sure that some of these exp. helicopters have great designs, but they have no standard or regulation to uphold to that I'm aware of other than proving that it can fly. With rotorcraft there is 0 margin for design error. Sure they go through there own r&d but real issues may not show up for thousands of flight hours. One scissor link, pitch link, rod end, or gear failure, and that's it. There are ALOT of AD's on certified aircraft as a result of unfortunate incidents. These may not show up for many years. Robinson was certified in 1992 and has a M/R blade AD from 2018. Again, my opinion here, so take it for what it's worth, but I simply believe there is not enough reputation or regulation for these machines for me to feel comfortable flying my friends and family through the mountains in.


Now, when it comes to performance, it really depends on what you want to do with it. If you want a helicopter I assume you want to do helicopter stuff...land on pinnacles, rocks, ridges, etc. Any helicopter can get in and out of a backcountry airstrip. But why get a helicopter if you're going to use runways. A good standard when it comes to performance is to go by the helicopters HOGE chart. (Hover out of ground effect) If the chart says it can do it, and you're comfortable, it's worth a shot. But you will find that if you want to land on a ridge in the mountains, you will need to be by yourself, with low fuel and low temps. The reason I use the HOGE chart for stuff like that is because on some of theses landing spots you may or may not be completely in ground effect. Steep ridges and rocky terrain makes the air do some funny things under a helicopter. Can it be done? Yes. Can it be done safe? Yes. I believe helicopters can be much safer than airplanes. Is it worth it? Yes. Will you have any money left? Depends. Which brings me to the next question. Is it affordable?

A relative question obviously but as stated before, there are alot if costs involved. Robinson publishes their operating costs but take that with a grain of salt. The Cabri also does the same and they are building up quite the reputation with a high level of safety and a number of on condition parts. I have about 100hrs in them and they are definitely a fun little helicopter. But its going to cost you about $375k to get your hands on one. Again, affordable being completely relative to the individual.

Hope this helps, I plan on doing some fun helicopter videos soon. Check out my IG @heli_adams for some pictures and content coming soon that's hopefully fun to watch and educational for all you backcountry crazies on here

Good response. Thanks.

Post your pics and vids here...what's Instagram?

Zzz you can count on it! Love this community.