My current panel has a boat anchor ADF receiver, a Narco MK12D nav/com, Mode C transponder, and portable intercom.

I am considering removing the ADF and Narco nav/com and installing a PSE PAR200 (functions include audio panel, vhf com, and 4-place intercom), plus an airgizmo mount for either a Garmin Aera or an ipad mini (would prefer the mini if it will fit).

Wanting some thoughts on removing the VOR. I personally don't use it much. I have no dreams or visions of ever flying this PA-22 IFR, it is strictly VFR flying. Weight savings would be nice and I am fine with a single com radio. For backup navigation I have a battery powered GPS I keep in the flight bag (and a paper sectional). And it is pretty evident that VORs will slowly go away... I don't think it will be a deal-killer down the road if I sell the plane. Any reason to keep the VOR?

I am just recently went through the same thought process and I will tell you how I ended up and many others will have different opinions.

Currently my panel is in the process of a complete "gut job" as part of that planning I elected to dump the old ADF system. The wiring we removed weighed 4 lbs and the unit itself weighed another 3+ lbs and this does not include the antena wire that of course ran the length of the airplane. I also elected to dump a CD player a previous owner installed but that is another story...

I did decide to keep both my VOR/GS radio's since they are tied to two KX-155's and also elected to have my older DME repaired and re-configured into the panel. It all is somewhat redundunt as long as my Garmin 696 keeps ticking, but I like this kind of duplication.

IMO I would dump the ADF given your circumstances, especially if you had a 396 or 496 sitting somewhere. I would however be reluctant to throw away your VOR radio just yet.

I've had GPS fail twice while flying the left coast back when. That was back in the days of 3 receiver units. Don't they all have 12 now?? Anyway it ultimately didn't matter because I was between the mountains and the deep blue sea and you just ain't never lost there. I did turn on the VORs just to be cautious and I haven't used an ADF since the Loran days. What do you need an audio panel in a single com panel for? Does the MK 12D work? My com 810 was broke all the time. I spent way more money getting the output transistors replaced than I spent buying it. You don't need TSO stuff. Get an MGL com with the intercom function, a transponder and a 696 or equal.

Or so they say...

Yeah the Narco MK12D works, just big and heavy and I know if it brakes it will probably be unrepairable. True I don't need the audio panel function, but the bluetooth stuff is nice in the PSE. Planning on keeping my current mode-c tranponder, would like to keep it until closer to the 2020 deadline for ADS-B out. Saving weight is a primary consideration.

Just checke dout the MGL unit... looks like it would fit the bill. I am OK without bluetooth as long as there is an aux music input which it looks like there is.

How are the MGL intercoms? My plane is pretty noisy and I have been really happy with the PSE intellivox stuff but does the the MGL perform similarly?

scottf wrote:How are the MGL intercoms? My plane is pretty noisy and I have been really happy with the PSE intellivox stuff but does the the MGL perform similarly?

I wish I could say. I bought one for the Luscombe and then kept it for the 701 build. I went by the information I could get on the internet and the word of the US distributor. PSE has pretty highly rated stuff so I can't say for sure if MGL is equal, but I took the educated gamble. Read up on their website on how it works. It's pretty much state of the art technology.

Dump the Mark 12....if you don't have a boat, they make pretty good door stops as well.

Install a good panel mounted (bring $$$) or a good portable GPS in a panel dock. Then, carry a backup portable GPS. Now you have redundancy, with more useful information and better coverage.

If you fly in mountainous terrain much, VOR coverage is pretty sketchy anyway, unless you are really high.

And you won't look back, trust me.

I think you'll find that most ANY modern intercom will be an amazing addition.

And, pull the ADF, they make decent doorstops as well.

Finally, all that stuff is tough to get repaired, if it's even possible. You're going to put a lot of money and/or sweat in a panel rebuild....I'd feel pretty bad if I did that and one of those dinosaurs took a dump two weeks after I did all that work.

FWIW

MTV

Thanks MTV. I agree, though my plane is not worth installing a Garmin 430/etc so a portable unit will do. The VOR to me is not worth its weight. Either I've been lucky or don't fly enough, but modern GPS receivers have been very reliable thus far. The ADF was installed in 1967 and never gets used. The Narco has treated me well but it it consumes a lot of limited panel space and is heavy.

I've already gone through a few portable intercoms, should have saved my money andy bought the PSE portable first. The PSE intercom has been great and works really well. Looking for similar functionality in a good intercom.

Now my thinking is to investigate the MGL V6 radio/intercom as that would really free up my limited panel space for the installation of an Airgizmo mount for either my iPad mini or a Garmin Aero unit. I got some quotes, sounds like 2-3 hours uninstalling the old stuff, and about the same for installing intercom jacks for 4-places and a new COM radio. I'd probably be ripping out 15-20 pounds of gear/wire and be putting in a few pounds of gear.

Different strokes, I suppose, but until the FAA regularly decommissions VORs, I wouldn't give up having one. The Mark 12D is not a bad radio, and it is repairable--an avionics outfit in Alamosa fixed mine. Cheaper to fix than replace--my repairs were $600.

Over the last 2 years, the gummit has degraded GPS in parts of the country on a regular basis. Every so often, I've received notices to that effect. It's been entirely in the southern tier of states, but the effects have stretched as far as southern Wyoming, Utah, southern Idaho in the western half, and in all the states along the Gulf of Mexico. The NOTAMs all caution that GPS signals may be erroneous or non-existent. All in the name of national security, I suppose, but long time GPS users will recall, it was only about 15 or 16 years ago that the gummit stopped the selective availability degradation of GPS signals. While SA was still active, GPS signals could take you as much as a mile off course--there was no repeatability, so if you attempted to use outgoing breadcrumbs to navigate back, your return course would be easily much different from your outbound course. It would only take a flip of a switch to activate SA again.

Additionally, I've had both my panel 430W and my handheld 96C GPS go off line briefly, although I wasn't in any of the NOTAMed areas. On my 430W, I was just leaving OSH, when a yellow flag came up on it saying that all GPS signals were lost and to use alternate means of navigation. In my case, I simply switched to the VOR side of the 430W and tuned in my Mark 12D--because I wasn't sure if the 430W was at fault or if it was truly no GPS signals (the 430W was only 2 months old at the time). I hadn't yet turned on my 96C, but when I did, it wouldn't pick up any satellites, either. I left OSH, and about 20 minutes later, the 96C came alive, and the 430W went through the "integ" start up and was online in a few seconds. But the point is that GPS isn't 100% guaranteed.

As for the ADF, I still have mine and will keep it for the foreseeable future. It's a King digital, works well, and there are still many NDBs around the country, both individually and as locator outer markers for many ILSs. In fact, the last approach I flew to minimums was an NDB approach to Holdrege, NE. It has since been replaced with a GPS approach, but the NDB was the only approach available at the time. NDBs are being decommissioned regularly, so there may come a time when it won't be a very useful item. They're still pretty common in Canada and Mexico, however, from what I've read.

When I'm on a long cross country, I typically use everything I have to keep track of where I am--sort of the belt and suspenders approach to navigation--and that includes the ADF, VORs, and GPSs. I also use the sectional charts, and if I had to, I could do it all by pilotage or ded reckoning, which I have done, but I choose to use everything--makes it lots easier.

Them's my thoughts, FWIW.

Cary

My 180 doesn't have any electronic NAV capability at all. Just a compass and the original Cessna DG that occasionally points the right direction.

I don't miss VOR's at all - they rarely line up with my desired course anyway. If I ever need that kind of accuracy I'll use Foreflight on my iPad, but 99% of the time I just look out the window.

Having said that, if the airplane were IFR legal, I'd leave them in. But as a VFR-only airplane, I've never missed them.

Chris

I don't mean to cause thread drift but I had a related question. I have a PA22 as well and fly VFR with Foreflight. However I would like to get IFR certified and really would prefer to do it in my own plane. I have neither ADF or VOR receivers today but planned to install one or two VOR receivers. In fact I nabbed a NAV radio from DBI (thanks).

I don't like to add weight either but figured that folks like myself might appreciate a plane that might be able to legally fly IFR. I know it won't add much value but I'd have paid a grand or two more for my plane if it was IFR equipped. So, what does everyone think about the resale value if you left the VORs in the plane?

Second question; am I nuts to think of getting my IFR rating without learning on a GPS?

Cary wrote:All in the name of national security, I suppose, but long time GPS users will recall, it was only about 15 or 16 years ago that the gummit stopped the selective availability degradation of GPS signals. While SA was still active, GPS signals could take you as much as a mile off course--there was no repeatability, so if you attempted to use outgoing breadcrumbs to navigate back, your return course would be easily much different from your outbound course. It would only take a flip of a switch to activate SA again.

As for the ADF, I still have mine and will keep it for the foreseeable future. It's a King digital, works well, and there are still many NDBs around the country, both individually and as locator outer markers for many ILS.
Cary

Cary,

Really? Selective Availability was THAT bad? Certainly not in my experience. We're not talking IFR approach capability here. I had one of the very first panel mount GPS units in my work airplane (installed before 'twas "legal"--government airplane) and it was magic! I flew that plane to remote sites again and again during the days of selective availability, and I never saw a position error of more than a hundred yards or so. That's good enough for VFR, I hope. Bear in mind this was a primitive, three channel receiver, not a modern 12 channel one.

I also had an early Garmin 100 I used in my personal plane, and I used it to verify the corners of my remote cabin site.....SA and all.

Now,I agree that I have on very rare occasions experienced GPS outages. Very rare occasions, and those, as in your experience, were brief. In my case, because of the altitudes I was flying and the sparseness of VOR stations, the VOR receiver I had on board was useless. That's why we carry charts, or should.

Again, this was VFR only. If I were ever contemplating doing LEGAL IFR, I'd keep the VOR receiver, but that's not what he indicated is his plan.

And, frankly, in a real pinch, I'd rather have a good GPS (panel or portable) on board in an emergency IMC encounter....and, yes, I have been there and done that. In the event of a GPS outage during one of those deals, I'd consider myself REALLY unlucky, climb, and ask for radar vectors to a surveillance approach.

ADF, on the other hand, CAN be sorta useful to listen to ball games on AM radio..... You can also use them to navigate, assuming you know where the AM radio transmitter is located.....

Sophis,

I seriously doubt the presence of VOR receivers would have ANY influence on the sale price of a plane. Actually, ANY avionics installation is a losing money deal unless you keep the plane long enough to get the utility out of it. I've seen planes with nearly new IFR GPS units sell for not much more than a comparable without.

These days, I value light weight and the power of modern portables more than a VOR. My 170 had a VOR radio, and every once in a while, I'd turn it on when close to a station just to verify that it worked, but in all honesty, I never once used it to actually navigate. Call me lazy.

MTV

The day before Thanksgiving at about 8500' in the north end of the trench my 430 flagged red for about 4 minutes, the 696 and Ipad did not?? (2000 mile trip)
Later the same day in the afternoon just south of Williams Lake the same thing happened but this time it was the 696 and the 430 for about 2 minutes, the Ipad did not lose anything or else it lied to me??
I think I have had a few other minutes of lost signals since I started using the GPS system?
Only once was I IFR and that was with a lot of room under the clouds that was clear!
My $.02
Have fun getting the IFR rating, it will be the hardest and best one you will ever get!!

Yeah, if your doing just VFR, I'd dump the ADF and the VOR. Let me know what you go with. I got really excited about the PSE until I saw it was only a 4 place intercom. I hope they come out with a 6 place version.

Is the MGL TSO'd for certified aircraft?

If your GPS is flagging enroute or terminal you have a duff box or antenna or antenna cabling. Newer iPad will also pull the Russian GNSS system for backup. Check the JeppFD app on iPad, shows own position on approach and airport plate, as well as enroute. Highest integrity requirement is for taxi, needing min 17m.

I removed all traces of VOR and Loran, including antennas, from my plane. Dodo tech, it's gone. If you want to play sentimental IFR go ahead, including an ADF, but in the real world it isn't used anymore. For work we fly integrated FMS where you can compare the GNSS solution to DME/DME, and it never goes to DME.

My priorities are a good comm radio and an intercom. Transponder only because I have to, and if looking now I'd go mode S. Portable GPS Nav is always going to be better than panel mount, and way cheaper.

Another vote for ditching the VOR and ADF. You will gain a little usefull load and our underpowered four seaters need all the help they can get. It may not seem like much weight, but it all adds up. That's why I'm stripping as much useless crap out of my 170 that I can. A good handheld GPS and a chart should be more than adequate for VFR flying. I've been using Garmin X96 GPS' for over 10 years and have never had a problem. Foreflight is great as well.

Grassstrippilot wrote:Yeah, if your doing just VFR, I'd dump the ADF and the VOR. Let me know what you go with. I got really excited about the PSE until I saw it was only a 4 place intercom. I hope they come out with a 6 place version.

Is the MGL TSO'd for certified aircraft?

MGL is built to TSO specification but is NOT TSO'd. I called the factory in OZ and they said they had no intention to pursue it either.

I don't have a VOR in my PA-12. Don't miss it a bit, I just have a com and a handheld gps.
I do have VOR's in the 205&207. I very rarely use them.

That being said.
Maybe it would make more sense to think about it in reverse?

If you don't have a particular piece of equipment would you be considering installing it.

To me on the 12 I wouldn't consider installing a VOR , ADF , DME etc. but I would consider installing a transponder. So to me if the 12 had a transponder I would keep it but probably not the VOR. (but I will never actually install a transponder unless circumstances change)

On the other hand on the Cessna's If I didn't have VOR's I would be considering installing them. so they will stay.

Hope this makes sense. just another angle to look at things.

Mister701 is correct, the MGL is not TSO'd. I have gotten several different opinions on that, but most people say since a radio is not required equipment for VFR, and the plane TCDS does not mention a radio under the CARs, a non-TSO'd radio is OK. At least I am hoping that to be the case.

scottf wrote:Mister701 is correct, the MGL is not TSO'd. I have gotten several different opinions on that, but most people say since a radio is not required equipment for VFR, and the plane TCDS does not mention a radio under the CARs, a non-TSO'd radio is OK. At least I am hoping that to be the case.

Interesting question. I'd like to hear the answer to that one. If this is the case, seems that there would be a lot of older aircraft types out there that could put whatever they wanted into the panel. Knowing the FAA, I'd think they'd have something to say about that. Please share what you find and where. MTV, what's your take?

If it's not STC'd or on the AML of the manufacturer, good bet that the FAA would not approve a 337 for it, in a certificated airplane. Like it or not, certificated airplanes are supposed to have certificated stuff in them. There are exceptions, but I'm not smart enough to know what they are.

On the issue of the SA vagueness, my experience at that time was only in my boat, and that was in the Fall of 1996. Had I followed the breadcrumbs back after going through Deception Pass, I would have been very clearly in the rocks by a wide margin. Once SA was lifted, that same little GPS became very accurate. All FWIW.

Cary