tomgelato wrote:So, I just went through the spreadsheet you sent me, which is both awesome and very eye opening... and, how the heck does anyone ever afford to own a plane AND actually fly it.

Yup. That's the rub. Me? I drive an old truck that's paid off and I quit all of my other expensive hobbies. Hammer's post is spot on, though. It's expensive. Unless you're more well-off than I'm assuming, you'll likely have to make some sacrifices to afford a plane.

I don't subscribe to the ostrich theory because I'm too much of a numbers nut, but even knowing the costs I'd still do it again. In our situation we're sacrificing less than the joy ownership brings. If that balance is off right now, it might not be a good time to be an airplane owner. But if it's not, keep researching and go for it!

Some really good discussion here, which is really what I was looking for. I appreciate all the honest feedback. I figure if I can scare myself as far as possible and still want to look at buying then I must be ready. Maybe in the end I'll wait for retirement or maybe I'll just say F* it and do it now... also thought about just buying a small ultralight-type plane so I can still fly when I want and also teach my wife how to fly. That might be how I "get my feet wet"

I agree that there should be a sticky with some of this information so noobs like me have a quick reference.

Hey Tom, just noticed your from Abilene, which one?

By the way, WELCOME!

tomgelato wrote:... also thought about just buying a small ultralight-type plane so I can still fly when I want and also teach my wife how to fly. That might be how I "get my feet wet"

Take a look at what courierguy is doing in his plane and tell me anyone out there is landing more places or having more fun. I don't know what his expenses are, but I guarantee they're less than on a certified 4-place airplane, and he routinely goes places I wouldn't dream of taking my 180hp Cessna 170.

No, you can't take the family and luggage...but do you really want to be learning the ropes of off-field landing with the wife and baby in the plane???

Unless you live in a unique part of the world that's inherently friendly to off-field landings, taking the family on a camping trip means flying into an airstrip, and you can always rent a 172 for that. Starting off with something small and non-certified is not only cheaper, but probably a lot more fun.

Flying has been one of the most rewarding aspects of my life, and I'm not trying to discourage you or anyone else from chasing the dream. But it costs what it costs, and numbers are terribly unforgiving of wishing and dreaming. It was 15 years after getting my license before I finally got an airplane, and it was a two-seater with about enough useful load to cary a ball point pen and a toothbrush if the tanks were full. We flew that for 600 hours before moving up to a four-seater, and starting small is the best thing we ever did.

We fly almost entirely cross-country at high DA and our mission profile would be much better fulfilled by a 180 or 185. We could go out and pay cash for any 185 on the market tomorrow, but we wont. The reason is that flying, fantastic as it is, is just one part of life. The airplane we own today doesn't punish us financially, and that's what keeps owning an airplane fun. The fact that it's not the perfect aircraft for us is Soooo much more than made up for by the fact that we can easily afford it.

An airplane is a play-toy, pure and simple. Everyone has their own values, but to me owning play-toys doesn't make up for having your wife driving around on bald tires, or not being able to buy a plane ticket and hotel room to attend your favorite niece's wedding, or having to go to the laundry mat because you can't afford to repair the washing machine, or not being able to get a mortgage when you decide you want to own a home.

To other people they are, and that's fine too. We all get to make our own choices!!!

Hammer hits the nail on the head (get it? ) with every point in his long post, but it does paint a pretty gloomy picture. I've owned four airplanes- a stock C150, a ragwing C170, a C150/150TD, and now a C180. I must say that I've had fun flying every one of them. In between gas, insurance, upgrades, and repairs, I've spent more money in the past year & a half of owning the C180 that I would have dreamed of spending back when I bought my first airplane in 1995-- but I'm glad that I bought it, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I know a guy who bought an early C210 for his first airplane, and another guy who's first airplane was a Beech 18! I consider both purchases as jumping off into the deep end of the airplane ownership pool, but they both figured what the hell and bought what they wanted to fly.

Tomgelato, you might want to consider buying what you might think of as not enough airplane. I know lots of guys who bought big capable airplanes for family flying adventures that didn't materialize after the wife & kids discovered they weren't really into it. A simple C150 will take you & your wife or you & your kid aloft just fine. Depending on the elevation & climate, you might have to be pretty selective about where you go with it, but my first 2 years and 300+ hours were spent in a C150 and I enjoyed every bit of it.

If I was you, I'd sniff around the local aviation scene (airports, EAA chapters, etc) and maybe find someone who's got a nice airplane & needs a partner on it. He or she might not even know they need a partner! Sometimes things work out that you can get flying privileges for splitting expenses or work, without even buying a share. Flying clubs / group ownership deals can also be a pretty good thing, worth looking into.

What Hammar and Hotrod 180 say is accurate, in my experience. I traded a very cheap Ercoupe for a Champ and finally moved up to a Tri-Pacer. By then I had two boys and started taking trips with my family. That ended after a two day wait on upslope fog in Walsenburg, Colorado in 1977.

My wife likes things to go as planned. She does not like unscheduled stops and other adventures. After that trip we took airlines or drove.

I kept flying cheap Tri-Pacers and in 1979 I traded for a Pawnee and started spraying. I never bought a people airplane again because I could do whatever recreational flying I needed to do, including off airport, in rented airplanes. They all work quite well in all but the roughest places.

Our plane is just another vehicle to us. We use it for travel, vacations, shopping trips, visit friends and family, you name it. So the cost is largely off setting because we'd be paying those transportation costs any way. A plane is incrementally more expensive, but also a great time saver so consider your time as worth something too.

Also, if you compare the cost of say a 4WD truck to the cost of the plane, they are not all that far apart especially if you calculate it using like for like numbers including vehicle depreciation and consider the cost of your home includes partially the cost of you garage (hangar equivalent and a hanger can be used to store items, too).

Try doing a comparison with those considerations, then treat it as a another vehicle purchase instead of a standalone "toy". that puts it in a different perspective. Can't say what your case would be, but for our uses, it actually makes sense, but still not "cheap". Add in the life experiences and the way it has enhanced our lifestyle and it is a no brainier for us. We do live in a town that is more remote than most so that also gives a plane a lot of utility for us that others may not realize.

Also, as alluded to above, consider experimental aircraft and learn to maintain them yourself. Not only do you save money on direct maintenance, but you'll have a much better idea of what is actually needed for maintenance instead of having others dictate items that might not be required; in other words, gain the knowledge and then make your own decisions.

Many planes run just fine on automobile fuel so that can be a big cost savings as well although harder to find when traveling on x-country trips. I'm flying a slow, draggy plane with a big engine and by just pulling the power back, I can get 14 mpg and then consider your traveling straight line and not wandering around on roads, it makes the gas millage pretty comparable to driving most vehicles. With the Rotax powered two seaters, they may even approach a Prius in terms of MPG.

Also, most of your flying will be by yourself so a two seater is fine and will be more fun to fly. For the exceptions, you can generally rent something to take all of you along.

I'm not discounting the cost of flying, but just putting into a more integrated perspective that mimics our utilization of the plane.

BR

Hey Tom! Welcome!

I agree with much that has been said here, a lot of astute wisdom.

I started by purchasing a stock 150J and flew it for two years (200hrs), and let me tell you I couldn't have had more fun flying that plane. Many people looked at me funny for doting over the homely spam can like I did, but I can honestly say that if I never fly again (gasp!) the memories of the places and feelings of flying in my home of Alaska will always be with me and ABSOLUTELY worth it.

My point is, buy a plane that you can afford to fly the WINGS off of (Figuratively speaking of course )

Welcome, Tom!

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, it's wise to separate the price of something and its value.

While I wouldn't attempt to justify owning an airplane on a purely financial basis, our family airplane has given us some of the best experiences of our lives together. Kind of hard to put a price tag on that.

It's all about priorities and where your passion lies. We've certainly sacrificed other things in order to own an airplane, but they haven't really felt like sacrifices. If I saw the airplane as just another toy, then the calculus would change for sure.