Hello all,

New guy to the forum. I'm a 31 year old pilot who earned his PPL in 2011 and Commercial/Instrument in 2014. I don't have very many hours in GA aircraft... or commercial aircraft for that matter. I'm a new pilot but do have over 1500 hours as an aircrew member. I will say that I fly for a living, but prefer not to say on a forum what I do, so apologies in advance if I don't respond to those questions. That's not why I'm here anyway; just wanted to give a little background. I'm really here to learn more about back country flying (obviously, right!?) and aircraft ownership.

As a part of my intro I'll say that I'm interested in finding out what some of the more economical ways of getting into aircraft ownership are that include aircraft capable of exploring places away from the pavement. If anyone has a link to a good forum post regarding this, please share. I can't really say what my budget will be (mostly because I want to be realistic and find out what is reasonable before I start to budget) but I'm hoping to complete the search around May of next year (2017).

Some questions:

Is it reasonable to think I could find a decent starter plane (3-4 place) that is capable of handling some off-road for under $30k?

What are the expenses people usually forget to account for when budgeting for their first aircraft?

What should be the question someone should ask them self when considering aircraft ownership?



Thanks in advance for your replies and thoughts.


Tom

P.s. I'm not as serious of a person as this intro might make me seem

Welcome! Where are you located?

To answer your first question, a great certified plane to meet those goals is a piper pacer. PA-20, PA-22, or PA-22/20. All great models.

I built a budget forecasting spreadsheet that's been pretty accurate so far. I can sanitize and email it to you if you like, just shoot me a PM.

The question I asked myself was why I waited so long.

tomgelato wrote:....
Is it reasonable to think I could find a decent starter plane (3-4 place) that is capable of handling some off-road for under $30k?
What are the expenses people usually forget to account for when budgeting for their first aircraft?
.......

1) yes. Pacer, TriPacer, Stinson, older 172.
2) "shit happens". Plenty of people have spent all their money on an airplane, then at the first annual discover a very expensive-to-fix problem. Or have engine issues and end up needing to do a major overhaul ($$$).

So no matter what you end up buying, be sure and keep some money (or credit) in reserve. Hopefully you won't need it, but you never know.

Yep, a Pacer can do more than some off-roading for well under $30k.

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/features/category/featured-trip-reports/marco-summer-in-the-pacer

Welcome Tom,

Pacer or TriPacer. Like Hotrod 180 said, keep some nickels in your pocket. You will need them. They don't have to look like show planes to fly quite well.

Jim

Thanks for the replies. I took a quick look at the Pacer and Tri Pacer on Barnstormers... that is an awesome looking aircraft! Looks very purpose built and capable. Please keep the suggestions and comments coming!



edit: I've gotten the impression that tailwheel aircraft are either better or more preferred for off pavement flying. Is this just perception or is there merit to this? I've flown a tailwheel once a few years ago but only with a friend who was introducing me to flying; didn't land it so don't really have a good feel.

You don't need 3-4 places for most of this flying you should be doing pretty much solo. Look at 84hp J3s as well - but they are not as well suited for cross country - but a lot more fun to fly than a short wing piper.

Soy,

There will be times where I will do some stuff solo but as it is I spend too much time away from my family (3 year old son). I want the option to load them up and take a trip somewhere... doesn't have to be a 500' LZ in the middle of nowhere. Could just be a weekend beach trip or camping trip. I just want to have the capability to land in some cool places.

CamTom12 wrote:Welcome! Where are you located?

To answer your first question, a great certified plane to meet those goals is a piper pacer. PA-20, PA-22, or PA-22/20. All great models.

I built a budget forecasting spreadsheet that's been pretty accurate so far. I can sanitize and email it to you if you like, just shoot me a PM.

The question I asked myself was why I waited so long.

So, I just went through the spreadsheet you sent me, which is both awesome and very eye opening... and, how the heck does anyone ever afford to own a plane AND actually fly it. So, my numbers were this:

Monthly Hours Flown----0---------5-----------------10-----------------15----------------20---------------30
Monthly Total Cost--$841.67-----$1,135.63----$1,429.58------$1,723.54-------$2,017.50------$2,605.42

Annual Hours Flown-----0------------60------------120--------------180---------------240---------------360
Annual Total Cost----$10,100.00----$13,627.50---$17,155.00--$20,682.50---$24,210.00-----$31,265.00
Years until Overhaul-------------------29.0-------------14.5-------------9.7--------------7.3---------------4.8

It’s easy enough to see the up-side to owning an airplane, but it’s not for everyone. Here’s some things to think about…if this sounds like a downer it’s not meant to be, but owning an airplane isn’t all rainbows and unicorns.

I LOVE owning an airplane. If I had to rent, I just would’t fly. That said, I caution people to be extremely careful about ownership. I’m always amazed at how the expenses add up even when things are going well. When things go poorly the costs are ridiculous. Read the “looks like my 150 is condemned” thread for an example. At 31 years old with a small child you’d better have family money, no debt, or one hell of a good job, and even then I’d think twice.

It simply comes down to money and how much you’ve got. Don’t buy more airplane than you can EASILY afford and it can be a sweet life. For lots of people, that means no airplane at all. Stretch yourself a little thin and it just sucks, no matter how awesome your airplane is. If you stretched yourself thin for an airplane that doesn’t actually do what you want, it triple-sucks.

It’s a little bit of a catch-22: If you own an airplane and don’t fly it much (say 50 hours a year), then you’re spending more money owning than you would be renting. If you fly it a lot it’s cheaper than renting, but now your yearly aviation expenditure is quite high. No, you can’t take a rental “off road”, but the idea that you’re going to by a $30k Pacer or 172 and start camping on gravel bars and beaches isn’t realistic either.

Airplanes are expensive, and the purchase price is only part of it. Insuring, maintaining, operating and storing them is where the real expense is, and it’s impossible to know exactly what you’re in for.

Things you can figure out beforehand for a specific airplane are:
Tie down fees.
Insurance.
Taxes.

Between taxes, insurance and hangar rent we’re out just shy of $6,000 a year without even leaving the ground. Hangar rent is over half of that, but without a hangar I wouldn’t be able to do nearly as much of my own maintenance. Three hours of a mechanics time equals a month of hangar rent, so I figure it’s almost a wash.

Then you have to figure out what it will cost to fly. Gas is cheap right now and filling my tanks costs $160. A year ago it cost $203. Oil alone costs me over three dollars an hour, and that’s with me changing it myself.

You might get three years out of an airplane without having to replace something expensive, or you might get three hours before a multi-thousand-dollar bill shows up. A lot of that has to do with what condition the airplane is in when you buy it.

Plan on a full annual inspection by YOUR mechanic prior to purchase. If paying $500 or so for an inspection on something you don’t end up buying is out of your price range, don’t buy an airplane. That inspection is NO guarantee that something major won’t go wrong, by the way. If you’re not in a position to afford more than 40 hours at rental prices each year, you really have to wonder whether owing an airplane makes any sense. Rentals suck, but you know exactly what your flying expenses are going to be, and that simply doesn’t happen with ownership. One little AD from the FAA and your $10,000 wing spars aren’t worth the gas it’d take to drive them to the dump. That’s the risk of ownership.

Some people are happy putting a huge portion of their expendable income into aviation, but most are not. You can’t fly all the time, or most the time, or even a small percentage of the time. If your non-flying life is significantly impacted by your aircraft ownership, you probably won’t be a happy airplane owner. I’ve seen more than one person do a spontaneous jig when they finally sold their airplane, even at a substantial loss.

Your first airplane doesn’t have to be your dream ship, or even all yours. A friend of mine was 1/4 owner in a 182RG. One year he flew it 204 of the 212 tach hours and was only on the hook for 1/4 of the maintenance. That’s a pretty sweet gig if you can get it.

How mechanical are you, and do you have anyone to mentor you while you learn to do your own maintenance? We wouldn’t own an airplane if I wasn’t able to do 99% of the maintenance myself. I’m lucky because I have a mechanic who is willing to oversee my work, and I still end up writing him five hundred or a thousand dollars worth of checks every year for work I can’t do myself. I don’t have a clue how many hours I put into airplane maintenance every year, but it’s a LOT.

The airplane you can get for $30k is going to be made from old parts. Airplane parts range from expensive to absurd. I have a completely restored airplane that I maintain the hell out of and keep hangared, and I still end up spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars each year on replacement parts. Since my annual inspection last July I’ve had to replace $3000 worth of parts…not upgrades, just replacing things that wore out. That’s not the norm, but it’s not unheard of by any means.

Granted I fly about 200 hours a year so some things wear out faster than they would if I was only flying 80 hours a year, but each of the items needing replacement grounded the airplane until they could be fixed. If I was in a position where I had to choose between making those repairs and having the funds to enjoy my non-flying time I’d sell the airplane in a heart beat. There is ZERO point to owning an airplane you cannot afford to keep airworthy and full of gas.

What flying opportunities do you have locally? Are there backcountry airstrips available? If you’re going to try landing truly “off-road” on gravel bars or beaches you either need to be able to drive there first to do a ground scout, and/or put bushwheels on your plane for any level of safety. Priced bushwheels yet? Don’t forget you need double-puck brakes per the STC! I’d guess converting a Pacer to bushwheels will run around $4,000 or more, and they wear out FAST on pavement. Assuming you’re taking out a loan for the airplane, you need to verify that insurance will even cover off-field operations, which they probably won’t.

Where you going to park it, and what will that cost you? How far away is the airport? If you’re a 45 minute drive away from the airport, is it really worth it?

At the end of the day you have to decide just how realistic it is given your priorities and budget. We could have bought an airplane ten years before we did, choosing instead to work on our financial security, and that was the right choice for us. Sure, we missed out on ten years of flying, but never once have we wished we weren’t airplane owners…something a lot of owners can’t honestly say.

BRB... Selling my airplane

Zzz wrote:BRB... Selling my airplane

Shouldn't you finish building it first?

Hammer wrote:

Zzz wrote:BRB... Selling my airplane

Shouldn't you finish building it first?

Well, knowing the dark days ahead as outlined in detail above, I don't know if I can find it in myself to carry on.

Zzz wrote:

Hammer wrote:

Zzz wrote:BRB... Selling my airplane

Shouldn't you finish building it first?

Well, knowing the dark days ahead as outlined in detail above, I don't know if I can find it in myself to carry on.

You'll feel better after a good nights sleep...right around 2018 I recon. (Emoticon denotes humorous intent to posting)

Sorry if I put a dark spin on it, but that's the reality of airplane ownership, at least in my experience. I don't see any benefit to sugar coating the expenses and financial exposures...it costs what it costs and you've either got the money to do it or you don't. Personally I'd be super-bummed if I spent $30K on a airplane and found out that I couldn't afford to actually use it.

If someone out there has figured out a way to fly for cheap (more than once) I'm all ears!!!

I personally take the see no evil / hear no evil approach and bury my head in the sand. I don't want to know the actual expenses.

Zzz wrote:I personally take the see no evil / hear no evil approach and bury my head in the sand. I don't want to know the actual expenses.

That would go a long ways towards explaining why you're brave enough to have children!

My technique is to acknowledge the real price of things, then drink till it doesn't bother me anymore. Probably for the best I never had kids...

Hammer wrote:My technique is to acknowledge the real price of things, then drink till it doesn't bother me anymore. Probably for the best I never had kids...

I figured I wasn't the only one employing that technique. Hammer, your long post above is worthy of being a part of the knowledge base, or a sticky or something. Great way to try to clearly understand how all the costs add up.

I'm renting while my airplane is in a million pieces and it's a very peaceful process. Compared to the scary (expensive) parts of ownership that is.

One of the things that is very important is, if you buy an airplane you must get a prebuy inspection done by a reputable shop or a local IA. this will let u know of the condition of the plane. You do not want surprises. the other is to have title insurance, to insure that you get a plane with no 50 year old liens . this has happened to two of my friends , who did not do a title search FYI.
I do not totally agree with hammer on all his points but he is right about most them. In order to save money you must be able to do a lot of the work your self or pay through the nose, this means as he said find a IA you can work with. I own 2 airplanes, both airworthy both flown regularly. expect small bumps in the road like my last month at annual on the float plane usually I open it up the IA comes down we work on it a day I pay $400-500.00 . Well this year we found a couple things to fix that took an extra day another $500 and I am very happy to have it back in the air , small bump.
Insurance Maybe $1000 per year per plane, hangar in my area go for $250-300 month.
Partner ships can be a good way to get your feet wet. It seems they are either really good like the first plane I was in or that they are really bad so buyer beware.
172's are good first planes also,, and if you buy one at a good or even fair price fly it a couple of years more than likely you will get your investment back when you sell it. The ones around here are going for $25-30,000, in annual ready to fly. we had our 172 all the way from Alaska to Mexico, great times!!!!
the big reason for me to own is I am a businessman, and when I am ready to go I want the plane in my hangar ready to fly. You will do fine

No, you can’t take a rental “off road”, but the idea that you’re going to by a $30k Pacer or 172 and start camping on gravel bars and beaches isn’t realistic either.

I don't see why not, I did. You need to make up your mind what you want to do and be prepared to learn it and practice it.

Between taxes, insurance and hangar rent we’re out just shy of $6,000 a year without even leaving the ground

My taxes, ins, and hangar rent per year is approximately 1600.00 That's on my "30,000.00 pacer" A lot of the expense of owning an airplane is where you are located and how many people are trying to get into the same hangar.

I have a completely restored airplane that I maintain the hell out of and keep hangared, and I still end up spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars each year on replacement parts. Since my annual inspection last July I’ve had to replace $3000 worth of parts…not upgrades, just replacing things that wore out. That’s not the norm, but it’s not unheard of by any means.

$3000.00 since last annual?? Makes me wonder how well the plane was "completely restored" or maybe how well the last annual really was, or even how much hell is actually maintained out of it. I know it's not unheard of but in my experience I spend less on wore out parts and more on maintenance and repairing my own stupid stunts

What flying opportunities do you have locally? Are there backcountry airstrips available? If you’re going to try landing truly “off-road” on gravel bars or beaches you either need to be able to drive there first to do a ground scout, and/or put bushwheels on your plane for any level of safety. Priced bushwheels yet? Don’t forget you need double-puck brakes per the STC! I’d guess converting a Pacer to bushwheels will run around $4,000 or more, and they wear out FAST on pavement. Assuming you’re taking out a loan for the airplane, you need to verify that insurance will even cover off-field operations, which they probably won’t

Yes I agree they are very expensive, but if I had to do it again I would in a heartbeat. One of the best upgrades I've done so far. It doesn't mean you have to do all the upgrades at once, make a list, prioritize, plan and start improving your plane. I have found that once you start adding improvements the list never ends, there is always something else you will be looking at, thinking about or spending money on....or so says my wife. If you plan to go off road DO make sure you have the right insurance.

Where you going to park it, and what will that cost you? How far away is the airport? If you’re a 45 minute drive away from the airport, is it really worth it?

Heck yes it is worth it, I do it several times a week. Would I like a hangar outside my back porch, sure but that is a ways down the road. You can shop hangars, gas, insurance and you can find ways to make it more affordable, but it is worth every effort you put into it!!!!

Hell I thought about selling after that long post, it's depressing if you think only of the money spent and not of the great flying, memories with the family, experiences had or the great people you will meet. While Hammer is correct on the majority of what he says there is a lot more gained from the money spent than an airworthy plane in a hangar. Take your time and find the right plane for you that best meets your mission and buy the dang thing and fly the crap out of it, don't worry about the money, your wife will do that for you.

Hey Tom,

I think myself and fshaw are flying about as cheap as possible, but there pro's & con's to everything. I had just put three kids through college, got my mom back to her house from the hospital and coughed up for 24 hr care so she could spend her last days there and inherited two family houses ( that we wanted to keep in the family) that both came with large amounts of debt and back bills. AND I wanted to buy an airplane. So, I bought a 150 from fshaw and he upgraded to a '56' 172. Would I have liked a more capable airplane, sure, but there was no way that was happening. I fly the 150 most of the time and steal Frank's plane when I need more room/usefull load. I flew about 70 hours last year and spent around $8,500 total (payments, storage, insurance, annual, repairs, gas, ect.). I'm not going to bring a pile of stuff and fly into a 900' strip for the weekend, but during the summer I'm up for short flights at least three evenings/week and usually more. Plus, my wife & I can easily head out for the weekend (Maybe not with full tanks) with enough stuff to have a great time. For me the key to keeping costs down was several things.

Buy a plane that's inexpensive to fly, insure and service. 5 gal/hr, $600/year insurance, plenty of used parts out there, cheap annual especially if you do an owner assisted.

Find a shop that will work with you on upkeep and annuals. We are VERY luck to have a great small airport about a 30 min. flight from us that is great with working with us on annuals, upkeep and maintenance. They are out there, just look around.

Keep it at a small local airport if possible.

Mogas! I burned about 400 gal last year and saved $2+/gal burning mogas instead of 100LL

Whatever you buy will be an old plane and you will definitely need to do repairs every year. Just assume there will be surprises and hope they aren't too big. Put some money aside for that and if you don't use it spend it on beer & whiskey. Luckily I haven't had a big issue yet, but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Find a friend that has a bigger plane and will let you use it!! Bribe him if necessary.

The bottom line is that while owning a plane isn't cheap I think it can be at least affordable. I may not own the coolest thing out there, but it's mine, I can fly it whenever I want and it's WAY better than not flying at all and I am having a blast.

Pete