MTV,

I see the training objective with your side slip to touchdown practice on alternate wheels. I don't see the objective with Brian's very fast low coordinated turn to final. If I were that fast and low and lost the engine, I would either make an energy management turn to line up or a wings level rudder turn in ground effect or just slow up and land at an angle across the runway.

Actually I have done each of those things in real life and they work. What am I missing here? I have also messed up and cartwheeled one. That didn't hurt me but I had a military harness and helmet.

mtv wrote:... running the plane down a long runway on one wheel is the true test of whether you're flying the plane. Touch on the left wheel, keep it on the left only, then run it down the runway. First touch with left wheel on the centerline, then move that left wheel twenty feet to the left, then back to center, then twenty feet to the right, then back to center.....and play that game all the way down the runway. Lift off and do the same drill on the right wheel.

After you get that drill, touch on the left wheel first, then lift off, touch with the right wheel, run on it for a bit, then lift off, and touch with the left.....etc.
MTV

What about doing this one-wheel landing / turning landing stuff in a trike? I'm thinking it's do-able if airspeed is low enough/pitch high enough to keep the nose wheel off the ground.

M6RV6 wrote:Ryan, looking good.
Watched the vid a couple times more, the only thing I would maybe try and I'm sure you will get there is maybe use a little more rudder close to the ground and less aileron. But you got a long time to catch up with that, talk to your partner there and see what he thinks.
Have fun, They are a blast to fly!!

Thanks for the feedback. Contact, your feed back was especially helpful. I did read three tail wheel training books cover to cover before I started my training, and they all said that students use too much and over control the ailerons during landing. I didn't even think I was using much at the time but your observations show differently. I'll work on locking down the aileron in the future.

I hope for some cross wind practice soon. The demonstrated max crosswind is 11 knots which seems low and I hope that it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a handful in moderate crosswind scenarios.

I completed 2 full stop landings during this session. and two in the session before that. I have found that wheel landings to a full stop on pavement is much more manageable than a three point. The gravel seems to be good for either type since it's a little more docile. I definitely have much more training to do, luckily I feel that I am well prepared to learn.

Thanks for the feedback, it is invaluable!!!
-Ryan

Tomahawk 49,

The side slip to touchdown on the upwind main is the same with nose gear as with wheel landing a tail wheel airplane. You are correct that we need to protect the nose gear. In a light headwind or quartering down wind landing, the nose gear will be high enough because we have to slow the ground speed with elevator. In a strong crosswind, we have to be careful to flair just a bit a touchdown. The airplane will be very level in a strong crosswind because the wind is reducing the ground speed just fine and we don't have to slow as much with elevator. It is OK to slow the ground speed even more with elevator, but we also have to take care not to get going backwards.

Brian, in the video, is not landing in a turn. He is making a very low right base to final coordinated turn and then getting on the left rudder hard to align the longitudinal axis with the runway while continuing to hold the right wing down with aileron (side slip.)

Ryan,

I also preferred the wheel landing in a student's Wilga with the radial engine. The cable from the rudder horns to the tailwheel had been stretched or damaged because we had almost no tailwheel steering. I thought the prop blast to the rudder was not the best, but flew it very little. He got frustrated with the expense to keep it legal and sold it. Your airplane looks well maintained.

I didn't get the chance to fly it in strong crosswinds but it acted like it would do fine in much stronger than 11 knots. It certainly will land slow enough with a power/pitch approach that an angle across the runway from the downwind corner to the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking would work in a strong crosswind.

Contact

Tomahawk49 wrote:

mtv wrote:... running the plane down a long runway on one wheel is the true test of whether you're flying the plane. Touch on the left wheel, keep it on the left only, then run it down the runway. First touch with left wheel on the centerline, then move that left wheel twenty feet to the left, then back to center, then twenty feet to the right, then back to center.....and play that game all the way down the runway. Lift off and do the same drill on the right wheel.

After you get that drill, touch on the left wheel first, then lift off, touch with the right wheel, run on it for a bit, then lift off, and touch with the left.....etc.
MTV

What about doing this one-wheel landing / turning landing stuff in a trike? I'm thinking it's do-able if airspeed is low enough/pitch high enough to keep the nose wheel off the ground.

Yes, works fine. They're all just airplanes. Takes a bit more focus on the pitch attitude throughout to protect the nose gear, so actually is a little harder in a tri gear, but again, it forces you to fly the plane.

Do this some in calm winds, and a crosswind will offer little challenge.

MTV

Tomahawk49 wrote:What about doing this one-wheel landing / turning landing stuff in a trike? I'm thinking it's do-able if airspeed is low enough/pitch high enough to keep the nose wheel off the ground.

You would have to be nose down or have a really long/tall nosewheel to have one main and the nosewheel on the ground at the same time in any kind of bank.


Sure, it can be argued that the pilot set his approach up too tight, but I think he did a great job of knowing where he could put the plane by continuing to fly it all the way to the ground, as opposed to maintaining a straight approach that would have had him touching down at the far end of the runway.

If the video doesn't work, here's the link: https://youtu.be/mk33A-yXa34

1:1 Scale wrote:

Tomahawk49 wrote:What about doing this one-wheel landing / turning landing stuff in a trike? I'm thinking it's do-able if airspeed is low enough/pitch high enough to keep the nose wheel off the ground.

You would have to be nose down or have a really long/tall nosewheel to have one main and the nosewheel on the ground at the same time in any kind of bank.

Sure, it can be argued that the pilot set his approach up too tight, but I think he did a great job of knowing where he could put the plane by continuing to fly it all the way to the ground, as opposed to maintaining a straight approach that would have had him touching down at the far end of the runway.

If the video doesn't work, here's the link: https://youtu.be/mk33A-yXa34

That video illustrates perfectly why it could be useful to learn to land in a turn.

1:1 Scale,

Yes. The Carivan pilot did a fine job managing the energy he had available in gravity thrust to put it down on the runway or taxiway. I really liked the wings almost level rudder turn at the bottom to line up without putting a wing into the ground. Yes the yaw sped up the right wing a bit and he didn't quite level it with aileron, but he didn't allow the left wing to touch down pole vaulting him into a violent cartwheel.

Contact

I'm sure that the person who made this comment is very knowledgeable: "Landing in a turn" terminology grates on us old instructors. You are in a cross controlled slip to put one wheel down first. Without a crosswind to side slip into, you are drifting toward the down wing. We can't land in a forward (no crosswind) slip because we have to line the longitudinal axis up with the direction of movement (with the center line.)"

However, the Landing in a Turn, which is the flagship maneuver of the Stick and Rudder Master Class taught at Tailwheel Town, is a COORDINATED manuever. I make a big thing out of lining up the tire with the tangent of the turn. I guess I'll leave it at that.

Too much time on all the high altitude engine failures (U-tube). Had to quit watching. Was too scary for an old crop duster. Engine could fall completely off before you could get down.

Waterboy wrote:

1:1 Scale wrote:

Tomahawk49 wrote:What about doing this one-wheel landing / turning landing stuff in a trike? I'm thinking it's do-able if airspeed is low enough/pitch high enough to keep the nose wheel off the ground.

You would have to be nose down or have a really long/tall nosewheel to have one main and the nosewheel on the ground at the same time in any kind of bank.

Sure, it can be argued that the pilot set his approach up too tight, but I think he did a great job of knowing where he could put the plane by continuing to fly it all the way to the ground, as opposed to maintaining a straight approach that would have had him touching down at the far end of the runway.

If the video doesn't work, here's the link: https://youtu.be/mk33A-yXa34

That video illustrates perfectly why could be useful to learn to land in a turn.

Actually, if the pilot had used flaps and a forward slip, he wouldn't have needed to land in a turn. Perhaps there was a reason he didn't use flaps, but why not land as slowly as possible, and use all the basic tools first? I can't imagine an engine failure that'd fail the flaps as well.....what am I missing?

MTV

Swooper,

What you are doing in the c-140 video with the young lady is skillful and exciting. I just can't see it as having any usefulness. On a crooked departure path or crooked approach path, I stay in ground effect and make rudder turns where terrain allows, as in the video. If an engine fails, why not make a wings level rudder turn at the bottom to line up, like the Carivan pilot, to make sure we don't put a wing into a wire or terrain?

Since you are touching down in the coordinated turn, I guess it can be done. I just don't see any advantage to putting one main wheel down while turning. Unless you have a really slick tire and really slick surface, you are going to really get some dynamic proactive rudder work going just as you touch down really fast.

A lot of these young guys low level down rivers using level turns. Not using wings level rudder turns or the energy management turn to keep the directed course going down the drainage is extremely dangerous. It certainly can be done with a level turn, but there are much safer ways to do it. Safe maneuvering flight techniques are not always the prettiest on video. Either way, we need to be tied in tight and have a helmet on.

Best regards,

Contact

contactflying wrote:What you are doing in the c-140 video with the young lady is skillful and exciting. I just can't see it as having any usefulness.

I guess I think many exercises are for the purpose of developing skill. They by themselves may not be useful in a day to day situation. Having flown with Brian I can tell you that the exercises he puts you through will indeed improve your skill. I appreciate that.

"Contact Flying" and MTV statement(s) about "slipping it in" makes sense to me but, may require more skill. The slip technique would be paramount with a low wing aircraft*.



*Example of alternative to "turning coordinated" in a touchdown (TW):

Low wing aircraft would require a (cross control) slip and then snap the CG (with rudder mostly) directly behind the MLG before losing rudder authority.

Very interesting discussion and beneficial to be exposed to different points of view.

I took my primary instruction from Brian while we were building our Highlander. ( I can only imagine what he thought, when I approached him as a zero time 60 year old wanabe pilot.) I believe his goal as an instructor is to expose you different techniques, and to build your confidence, in your ability to survive an engine out emergency. Be it landing in a turn, 60 degree banks, (Contacts “energy management turns” and Brian’s “keep the nose down”) slips, what ever it takes to get you to and stuff it into your chosen landing spot.

The Caravan pilot did exactly that.

Jim

Good point Jim. Having only one "school solution" leaves little judgement for the pilot to make.

I expect I would like a lot of what Brian teaches. I guess I can get around landing in a slight turn. Except for not having your longitudinal axis pointed the way the airplane is going, it would be like a side slip to touchdown on the upwind wheel in a crosswind. I see problems with my students using it, however. I teach them to turn at whatever bank is necessary to make the desired touchdown point while letting the nose go down as designed. I want them to get the turning done early so they can get the wing level before putting it into something.

I cartwheeled a Callair and it is just too exciting. Broke the right wing spar twice and tore the engine off while not touching the left wing. And I was plenty slow for the forced landing. Once that wing, pole vault, touches down, you are a passenger going over the high bar. It is not just an "oopse," it is an "ohwee."

Because he wouldn't have enough energy to pull off at the taxiway!

Jim 541 wrote:Very interesting discussion and beneficial to be exposed to different points of view.

I took my primary instruction from Brian while we were building our Highlander. ( I can only imagine what he thought, when I approached him as a zero time 60 year old wanabe pilot.) I believe his goal as an instructor is to expose you different techniques, and to build your confidence, in your ability to survive an engine out emergency. Be it landing in a turn, 60 degree banks, (Contacts “energy management turns” and Brian’s “keep the nose down”) slips, what ever it takes to get you to and stuff it into your chosen landing spot.

The Caravan pilot did exactly that.

Jim

I really want to fly with Brian. He's just over the cascades from me, and I've been watching Ryan develop some great skills. There's almost no one left in Corvallis that knows how to fly anything less than a five mile final.

I also took some of my primary from Brian. On one flight, we overflew the strip we were using mid-field at 1500’. By the time we were abeam the approach end, I had let us get down to 500'. Brian asked "so what are you going to do?" "I think I can make it" I said, and cranked the plane over, leveling the wings just before touchdown. It wasn't my smoothest landing, but it was OK.

I wonder how many instructors out there would've made me power up and extend my downwind, or possibly re-enter the pattern?

hpux735 wrote:
I really want to fly with Brian. He's just over the cascades from me, and I've been watching Ryan develop some great skills. There's almost no one left in Corvallis that knows how to fly anything less than a five mile final.

That's a requirnent if you're going to fly the Wilga brother.