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Trent Palmer case final chapter

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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

Mapleflt wrote:I must being reading this all wrong, are you suggesting we should be praising the airman who bailed out of the T-cart for his act of heroism and airmanship decision making !!!

I quote....

"The only people who would be against this would be the FAA types who like to jam folks up like Palmer or the CT seaplane dude, or the airmen who do VERY BAD stuff like that idiot who bailed out of the t cart with the fire extinguishers"


You’re reading it backwards

Were we to reclassify the FARs as misdemeanor criminal offenses, opposition would arise solely from those engaged in genuinely reckless and perilous conduct.

Such a shift would grant the FAA greater authority to address true malfeasance, while simultaneously curbing the federal enforcers, whose actions too often veer into baseless overreach.

Their frivolous cases, under this new standard, would range from exceedingly difficult to outright untenable.

If subjected to the rigorous demands of criminal prosecution, incidents like Palmer or the float plane in Connecticut would likely collapse under scrutiny. The evidence required to prevail in such matters would fall far short of what is necessary when held to a proper judicial threshold.

The accused, endowed with the same rights as any individual charged with a minor offense, say, trespassing in a public space, would stand on firmer ground. Justice demands no less than this: a standard of proof that ensures only the culpable are held to account, not the convenient targets of bureaucratic whim.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

hotrod180 wrote:
Ross4289 wrote:I have always thought the yellow on VFR charts indicated “congested areas” and meant 1,000 AGL or greater. Apparently that is not necessarily the case and it is a grey area and open to interpretation.


I've heard that too.
I've also heard that the yellow shading represented areas where "city lights" were visible at night.
That yellow is conspicuous by it's absence from the legend on sectional charts--
another case of vagueness.


Just looked this up the in the FAA chart users guide. I had always been taught it was city lights and not congested areas. My CFI was very explicit on this one for some reason. The users guide says its "populated place". Nice that they keep their language consistent so there isnt any gray area. /s

Here's a link if anyone is curious: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_ ... ero_guide/

Its on page 35 once you click into the PDF.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

Josef wrote:
hotrod180 wrote:
Ross4289 wrote:I have always thought the yellow on VFR charts indicated “congested areas” and meant 1,000 AGL or greater. Apparently that is not necessarily the case and it is a grey area and open to interpretation.


I've heard that too.
I've also heard that the yellow shading represented areas where "city lights" were visible at night.
That yellow is conspicuous by it's absence from the legend on sectional charts--
another case of vagueness.


Just looked this up the in the FAA chart users guide. I had always been taught it was city lights and not congested areas. My CFI was very explicit on this one for some reason. The users guide says its "populated place". Nice that they keep their language consistent so there isnt any gray area. /s

Here's a link if anyone is curious: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_ ... ero_guide/

Its on page 35 once you click into the PDF.


^ that

The yellow is for night time nav

Congested means whatever the FAA deems it to mean on that day during that flight
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

The single biggest problem I see within the FAA is the singular unwillingness of Supervisors in the FAA to overturn a citation issued by one of his/her Inspectors. Take the case of Bob Hoover.....that case got so much egg on the face of the FAA it was incredible, and I doubt there were more than two FAA Inspectors who believed the assertion to be true. Right up to the Administrator, the FAA just let that one stand, and as a consequence, they lost a lot of respect in the pilot community, as well they should have.

I got caught up in a maintenance issue once, where a new Maintenance Inspector revoked a field approval signed by one of that FSDO's longest serving (and best) Inspectors, because he believed an error had been made. The error was actually HIS, which I was able to prove to him right off the bat. Nope....no going back. This thrashed along, wound up with this jerk coercing Hartzell propeller into violating their own company policy on selling paper, etc, etc. Finally, I walked into the FSDO Chief's office, helped myself to a cup of his coffee, and sat down. No words. He asked me if the "situation" was resolved yet. Nope. Groan. He went down the hall, and when he returned he told me to go talk to his guy. I did, and this genius had yet another means to "fix" the "problem", which was created by HIM. Fortunately, that didn't cost me anything, so I took it. But, this total goat rope resulted in a week and a half of angst, frustration, a hundred and fifty bucks for a piece of paper I didn't need, etc. For no reason at all, because the original field approval was absolutely legal to start with.

If that kind of thing had happened in one of the law enforcement cases for which I issued a citation, my boss would have told me to tear up the ticket and apologize. And, I would have. It wouldn't have been my boss telling me to figure out a "work around" so they wouldn't look bad. My question is, why can't the FAA function like that? They act as if an Inspector is ALWAYS right, and clearly they are not. In Trent Palmer's case, they should have "educated" him on the wisdom of attempting to land in a subdivision, and sent him on his way, no harm, no foul.

And, in the Bob Hoover case, the Administrator should have "ungrounded" Mr. Hoover right away, and had a little heart to heart chat with the dicks who busted him and massively embarrassed the FAA in the process.

Rant over,

But, "except when necessary for landing or takeoff" is just plain old English.....sorry, it can't be much more clear.... :lol:

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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

mtv wrote:The single biggest problem I see within the FAA is the singular unwillingness of Supervisors in the FAA to overturn a citation issued by one of his/her Inspectors...

Couldn't agree more. Problem is the regs can be a bit vague and at the end of the day we can be at the mercy of one inspector who has a bone to pick. Not only that, if you do find yourself downstream of such a character the appeal process is somewhat set up to rubber stamp the fed as in Trent's case.
In general I believe violations should be reserved for people who are truly negligent or malicious. With the whole marketing campaign of a kinder gentler FAA, they've proven it only takes one inspector to make that not true.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

For whatever little value my opinion is worth, I agree with MTV - his interpretation is precisely how I understand the reg and although I'm bummed about Trent being nailed I don't particularly appreciate the red herring of the water landing case. In fact it irritated me enough that I shut the video off before finishing it. That said, I avoid content like Trent's anyways so some of my own bias is at play.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

I think that dealing with the FAA is kinda like dealing with the cops...
if you fail the attitude check, you're in for a rough ride.
For example, we had a local guy who got busted for flying the morning of 9/11.
He took off from his airpark not knowing about the airspace closure.
Scuttlebutt is that a couple of his own airpark neighbors called the cops/ feds & ratted him out, apparently he was not well liked.
He flew to my airport & was fueling up when he was told about the airspace closure.
He then flew his airplane back home (about 20 miles away).
FAA got ahold of him & wanted to talk, & he tried to bluster his way out of it.
I think if he'd have just said "I fucked up, sorry", he would have gotten a relatively gentle slap on the wrist--
instead of the year-long license suspension he ended up with.
I don't know Trent Palmer, and don't watch his videos,
but I get the feeling that his interaction with the FAA might have been similar.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .

100% agree.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .


This is precisely my position on it. I bet 9 out of 10 instances of pilots being cited in this fashion involved at least a healthy portion of ego/cavalier attitude on the part of the pilot.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .


The fascination with executing off airport landings, occasionally documenting the endeavor on film and sharing it across the digital expanse, does that not bear a striking resemblance to the very social media platform we find ourselves engaging upon at this moment?



CParker wrote:
low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .


This is precisely my position on it. I bet 9 out of 10 instances of pilots being cited in this fashion involved at least a healthy portion of ego/cavalier attitude on the part of the pilot.


If one’s demeanor alone determines whether they face severe consequences from the authorities, then the very concept of justice has utterly abandoned us.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

I've signed off many PPL and higher students and I can guarantee they all knew- very well 1) 500' and 1000' bubble of other persons or property, 2) they were always responsible to be as safe as possible meaning if that engine ever quit, they were always in the best position (whatever the landing/departing site may be) to safely land, 3) they were responsible for the safety of their passengers, always. You cannot expect your passengers to know what is safe and what is not. Yeah, I know single engine, hostile terrain and more but using best judgement and practices, one can mitigate risks.

This all sounds so simple but every flight activity has to keep these points in mind even if you think no one is watching.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

NineThreeKilo wrote:
low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .


The fascination with executing off airport landings, occasionally documenting the endeavor on film and sharing it across the digital expanse, does that not bear a striking resemblance to the very social media platform we find ourselves engaging upon at this moment?



CParker wrote:
low rider wrote:Not sure what the infatuation with Trent Palmer is. Look at the video , looks like an obvious buzz job to me. I could personally care less if he lost his license . Post enough videos online of yourself and you’ll probably end up with some sort of violation as well . Or maybe not since the FAA is so backwards.Seems like a waste of bandwidth .


This is precisely my position on it. I bet 9 out of 10 instances of pilots being cited in this fashion involved at least a healthy portion of ego/cavalier attitude on the part of the pilot.


If one’s demeanor alone determines whether they face severe consequences from the authorities, then the very concept of justice has utterly abandoned us.


That's not what I said.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

CParker wrote:That's not what I said.


Fair enough

If one’s demeanor determines whether they face severe consequences from the authorities, then the very concept of justice has utterly abandoned us.


Giving a favorable treatment to someone who kisses the ring is just as bad as throwing someone into the bureaucratic meat grinder for having perceived “attitude”

Attitude should be no factor if the investigation is just and competent

I find myself in concurrence with part of that argument.
Palmer has indeed highlighted a critical point, one should exercise extreme caution when engaging with governmental authorities, law enforcement, or regulatory bodies. It is prudent to document such interactions while posing only the most essential inquiries, perhaps a simple, “Might I inquire, sir, as to the nature of my offense?” or “Would you kindly elaborate further?” Leave declarations and detailed discourse to your legal counsel. The apparatus of the state, I must emphasize, is not inclined to act as your ally.
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

NineThreeKilo wrote:
CParker wrote:That's not what I said.


Giving a favorable treatment to someone who kisses the ring is just as bad as throwing someone into the bureaucratic meat grinder for having perceived “attitude”


There is a difference in kissing the ring vs being open honest and contrite. I have never kissed the proverbial ring BUT I have been both a dick and open honest & contrite. The older I get I have less tolerance for dickishness and more respect for the latter. If you get a break for being decent, well, maybe we should be decent more often.

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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

pburns wrote:
NineThreeKilo wrote:
CParker wrote:That's not what I said.


Giving a favorable treatment to someone who kisses the ring is just as bad as throwing someone into the bureaucratic meat grinder for having perceived “attitude”


There is a difference in kissing the ring vs being open honest and contrite. I have never kissed the proverbial ring BUT I have been both a dick and open honest & contrite. The older I get I have less tolerance for dickishness and more respect for the latter. If you get a break for being decent, well, maybe we should be decent more often.

Pete


Being “open and honest” with a government agent who is investigating you is not good ADM or even general life decision making

There is a reason police don’t even talk to police if they find themselves at the business end of the conversation, same with lawyers or anyone who has professionally dealt with these types.

Keep in mind most all of these ASI have very little aviation experience, most have had no success in the industry, and nil backcountry experience.

What looks normal to someone who is experienced in off airport ops is going to look very “scary” and “odd” to the average ASI

This was made for dealing with CBP confrontations, but it is a good guide for dealing with any government type you may encounter while enjoying aviation


Image

*per the recording, in a public place recording a gov official doing his duties is 100% fair game to record per the 1A, lots of legal rulings and back that up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glik_v._Cunniffe
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Re: Trent Palmer case final chapter

NineThreeKilo wrote:
pburns wrote:
NineThreeKilo wrote:
CParker wrote:That's not what I said.


Giving a favorable treatment to someone who kisses the ring is just as bad as throwing someone into the bureaucratic meat grinder for having perceived “attitude”


There is a difference in kissing the ring vs being open honest and contrite. I have never kissed the proverbial ring BUT I have been both a dick and open honest & contrite. The older I get I have less tolerance for dickishness and more respect for the latter. If you get a break for being decent, well, maybe we should be decent more often.

Pete


Being “open and honest” with a government agent who is investigating you is not good ADM or even general life decision making

There is a reason police don’t even talk to police if they find themselves at the business end of the conversation, same with lawyers or anyone who has professionally dealt with these types.

Keep in mind most all of these ASI have very little aviation experience, most have had no success in the industry, and nil backcountry experience.

What looks normal to someone who is experienced in off airport ops is going to look very “scary” and “odd” to the average ASI

This was made for dealing with CBP confrontations, but it is a good guide for dealing with any government type you may encounter while enjoying aviation


Image

*per the recording, in a public place recording a gov official doing his duties is 100% fair game to record per the 1A, lots of legal rulings and back that up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glik_v._Cunniffe


Good advice, all that.....all done politely, of course.

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