My screen name is true, I am still learning. Some days quite a bit. I will have owned my 180 for 2 years on August 1. An IA that works for a friend looked over the plane before I bought it, I paid $1000 to another guy for my half of an annual on it before I saw it, then last July I had a friend do an annual on it. The guy that first looked it over before I bought it was not doing an annual, just an overall looking at it. He mentioned oil canning in the horizontal when the elevator was cycled, but did not do a thorough inspection to determine the cause, on the outside nothing was grossly evident. The guy that did the "annual", that I paid $1000 for, did nothing but look at it as well, no compression check, no wheel bearings, not even air in the low tire, but he did sign it off. After I bought it, I met a guy that was quite helpful with getting some small items taken care of. We rebuilt the fuel selector because it did not shut off, we put new O rings in the tank drains, and the gascolator, ended up replacing the tail wheel because the head was shot. We became friends and he did the "annual" on it this last July. I am new to this whole thing and at that point had respect for the man as a friend and an IA. But, I knew there were many things that were not done and questioned whether he had really inspected anything. I was helping him and he never asked me to remove many of the panels to inspect inside the fuselage or other areas. During the compression check, the #5 cylinder only got to 46 or 48, but he told me that if the motor were hot it would be over 50 and that was good enough to pass. I should have known better, but I still trusted him at that point. Over the next several months, I found out that the 5 hours he spent on the "annual" was a total joke.
This year I was bound and determined to have someone good truly look over the new to me airplane. So, I asked a friend that has two full time mechanics if his guys would do the annual. They agreed and I recently flew it 6 hours east to get it done. As I type this, it is sitting waiting for the overhauled cylinder to be put on, and the horizontal is at a shop getting structural repairs done to it. 10 minutes after I got to my buddies hangar, his guy and I went out and did full power runs and an brief assessment of it while running and taxiing. While doing this he asked what issues I have had, what in the plane worked and didn't work, all the while taking down notes. We got back to the hangar and immediately got to work. The compression check showed the #5 to be at 30 psi with a leaking exhaust valve, within 2 hours the cylinder was off and on its way to be overhauled. He also found 2 rivets with the heads popped off under the floor near the right gear box, old damage, rivet heads covered in oily dirt. Over the next couple of days he and another guy found improper hardware holding the left wing to the fuselage, and a throttle plate that only opened to about 80%. I removed the old engine monitor and started installation of a new 730, while at the same time removing 2 unused breakers, dozens of feet of unused wiring, the cigarette lighter that made lightening, a non-working clock, a non-working factory carb temp gauge, and other strange vestiges under the panel. After the inspection and the work on squawks started, they asked me about the "clunk" I had told them about when I have full nose up trim and make a turn to base or final. Within 3 minutes they had the problem located, a separated rib in the horizontal, the clunk was the horizontal flexing under load. Within an hour or so the horizontal was packed up and ready for my buddy to fly it to northern MN to get repaired. It was old damage, it was the oil canning that was present before I bought it.
My buddies guys checked every bolt, every hinge, every cable tension, the mixure cable, the throttle cable, the hot and cold air cables, they inspected every inch of the interior and exterior of the structure. I was shocked at the attention to seemingly unimportant things like the cabin air cable. All of the non-placarded stuff has new placards, all the hardware is correct, and soon the horizontal will be installed with new hardware.
The structural damage in the tail was not new, nor were the popped rivets in the belly, nor the heavily abraded brake hose coming off the right master cylinder, nor the dead cylinder, nor the inspection hole cut into the underside of the fuselage between the stinger mounts, yet two IA's had signed it off as airworthy. The "friend" that did last year's annual was with me many times when the tail "clunked", he told me it was nothing, that they all make some kind of noises.
When I fly it home next week, it will be the first time in two years that I have no concerns of the plane being sound, sad that it took 3 annuals to find the problems. It will be like a new airplane to me, with all six cylinders pumping WHILE getting full throttle.

-0-

StillLearning wrote: it took 3 annuals to find the problems. .

No, it took ONE annual, and a couple wasted non-efforts!
Dogpilot's exactly right, it costs to be in aviation. I don't know how many times I've had a plane come in from one of the other notoriously inexpensive local IA's and I do an actual Annual Inspection on it, and as said above, the owner has a heart attack because it didn't just cost $250. So they're mad and they don't come back (usually) and they go back to "Leroy" or whoever has been running by it for the past ten years with his tennis shoes on when he signs it off. He's happy, because he knows I fixed everything that needs fixing and he's going to look like a hero in the owner's eyes because he's going to do nothing for a few years. Sad but that happens often. One of the main reasons I am VERY picky about who's annuals I do anymore.
John

hardtailjohn wrote:

StillLearning wrote: it took 3 annuals to find the problems. .

No, it took ONE annual, and a couple wasted non-efforts!
Dogpilot's exactly right, it costs to be in aviation. I don't know how many times I've had a plane come in from one of the other notoriously inexpensive local IA's and I do an actual Annual Inspection on it, and as said above, the owner has a heart attack because it didn't just cost $250. So they're mad and they don't come back (usually) and they go back to "Leroy" or whoever has been running by it for the past ten years with his tennis shoes on when he signs it off. He's happy, because he knows I fixed everything that needs fixing and he's going to look like a hero in the owner's eyes because he's going to do nothing for a few years. Sad but that happens often. One of the main reasons I am VERY picky about who's annuals I do anymore.
John

True. Found several AD’s that were never done on a couple airplanes from a pencilwhipper, one of which were two engines on a twin with the infamous crank AD, with those exact engine S/N listed in the AD for mandatory crankshaft replacement. The last IA signing off the annual for 9 years straight , YES 9 years and never saw that big huge AD. The New IA found the AD, fixed all the discrepancies he found and 50k later with new overhauled engines, that same aircraft goes back to the cheap pencilwhipper. The Lycombing rep about fell out of his chair when he found out about this too.

The ultimate responsibility of making sure your airplane is airworthy lies with you as the owner.

Accepting a pencil whipped annual inspection is almost just as bad as doing it yourself.

I know some folks are just unaware or ignorant, but the old adage "If it's too good to be true, then it probably is" comes to mind.

OTOH, I've seen $8000+ annuals at full blown commercial maintanance shops that doctor the books to make it look like everything was done properly, but then it's plainly clear that they didn't even remove every inspection panel...even the ones required to inspect and comply with AD's. Stupid. I've had to clean a mess like that up a few times.

Just like being a commercial pilot or a ATP, being a A&P or IA doesn't mean that someone isn't a complete hack.

It can take time to find a good mechanic that will work with you to make your airplane as good as it can be...when you find them treat them right. I had such a mechanic once, and I overpaid him every time he worked for me.

Of course if you're not intimately involved in your airplane maintenance, you'll just going to have to take someone's word for what was done. I think mechanics do a better job when the owner is actively participating...not because someone is keeping an eye on them, but because they can see that the owner really cares about his airplane, and that makes working on it more enjoyable and rewarding.

The annual inspection, BTW, is a pretty small part of aircraft care and feeding...really just a check of things that shouldn't be giving you any trouble. Everything that actually needs work should be addressed as it comes up, not deferred for the annual.

These airplanes needed a lot of maintenance when they were new, and that was a long time ago. Depending on how much you fly, get used to the annual inspection being one of many maintenance sessions throughout the year.

Part of the problem is just going to "a buddy", without checking the buddy's credentials--not his/her IA or A&P certificate, but his/her reputation in the aviation community. Aviation is a relatively small world, and it doesn't take too long for pencil whippers to be known, nor for hard-working detail-oriented IAs and A&Ps to develop decent reputations. Granted, that sometimes disgruntled customers will bad mouth a good mechanic, and friends will build up a bad one, but mostly by asking around, good information is available.

The other side of the coin is that even the best will miss some things from time to time. It doesn't help that sometimes owners aren't forthcoming about the problems that they know about, or are too cheap to fix when they're told about them, or choose the patch repair rather than the real repair that is better.

Here's a good for instance. My IA called during an annual and said that my exhaust system had some serious weak spots. He said that there were a couple of alternatives, address the weak spots with some judicious welding, or replace the entire exhaust system. He said that the patchwork would work, and the airplane would be airworthy, but that eventually, maybe the next year or at most the following one, a new exhaust system would be necessary. I gagged at the price of a new one vs. patching the old one ($4000 estimated vs. a few hundred), but I opted for the new one. When the new one came in, made by a company with a good reputation, it fit perfectly, and the only thing my IA had to do was cut one tail pipe to match the angle of the other one, strictly for cosmetic similarity. And surprisingly, the manufacturer's bill was a couple hundred less than their estimate.

On another occasion, he discovered a crack in the upper door hinge for the pilot side door. Cessna wanted some unGodly price for a new one, several hundred dollars for a hinge that looks not dissimilar from the $5 hinges at Home Depot. But here's where a good IA makes a difference. He located an identical part from a wrecked airplane, which cost much less and was (and is) just as good as a new one.

So in answer to your headline, yes, I do trust my IA when he does an annual on my airplane. He's been taking care of my airplane now for more than 15 years, and although I know that he's only human and can make mistakes, he's never cheated me, nor has he guided me incorrectly. And he does quality work.

Cary

The "friend" that signed off last years annual, is one of those guys that tells everyone how great he is. I knew that when I first met him and usually I want nothing to do with people like that. But, in the beginning it didn't matter to me, he was someone to fly with and help me tinker on the plane. I made the mistake of trusting him and not pushing the issue at the time when I thought the "annual" was b.s.
Since then I have seen his work both on my plane and others. I now know without a doubt that he is a hack, and a lazy one at that.

I do not know yet what this current real annual will cost, but it is worth every penny. I now know exactly what I've got. I learned a lot about my own plane, as well as what an actual non-hack inspection entails. In reality a couple of rivets, a repaired horizontal and a new cylinder are not that bad, it could have been much worse.

The thing is, going to a good mechanic who does a good, detailed, comprehensive annual will be cheaper long term. Things that are neglected tend to escalate, and in aviation, escalation costs even more money...

I bought an airplane that had "pencil-whipped" annuals for at least 3-4 years. But I took it to a great mechanic for the pre-buy, which turned into an annual when we agreed to go forward with the sale (after some considerable discounting by the original owner to offset the cost of some mandatory AD repairs). That one visit to the shop cost me about $18,000 (on an $82,000 airplane), but I left there confident that the plane was "right". Finding a good mechanic is at least as important as finding a good CFI.

Not a surprising story, we hear these tales of warning a lot.
There are a lot of rotten apples under every good fruit tree.

I have had nine annuals done on my 180 by four IAs at an average cost of about $3500 each. I fly 100+ hours a year and put my family in that airplane. I don't do any of the work myself and, because my time is valuable, I want the airplane to be ready to go when I want to fly. I do preventative maintenance and try to nip problems in the bud when I see them coming. In nearly 1000 hours of flying, I have never had the airplane strand me anywhere.

I try to be careful with my money, but it isn't cheap to maintain a 40+ year old airplane. I want to live to be an old man and cutting corners on maintenance isn't going to increase my chance of getting there.

The IA that did my last annual is one state over, and more expensive than the other three I have used. But when I said I'll be there at noon to drop off my plane, they were ready and three A&Ps were pulling panels and doing compression checks within 30 minutes of my arrival. By contrast, the guy I used in 2018 cost a lot less, but took five weeks to do two weeks' worth of work and initially missed a failing exhaust valve that ultimately required a new cylinder. When they finally figured it out, they didn't do the installation right which caused more problems. So, I seem to get what I pay for.

I have thought about using Savvy Aviation to help me vet shops and to give me a second opinion, but I have not. I would like to hear from anyone who has used them!

People are usually flabbergasted when I note that my budget for Tri Pacer maintenance is $5-7K/year. About $3k when something happens somewhere (exhaust, this year), and $3k for annual. Have also always been confused at the way describe their "annual" costing $500 as an inspection fee, but not mentioning the other $2.5k it seems is inevitably needed to replace the voltmeter that went out, to comply with an AD that the last 10 mechanics missed, etc etc. Or maybe I'm good at getting taken for a ride. Reality is probably somewhere between the two.

I'm moving towards doing more owner maintenance to learn about the plane, but one of the best things about buying an aircraft that was recently restored and an Osh winner is that, there's this incredible feeling of guilt, if you don't keep the thing in absolutely perfect shape. So, no deferred maintenance, and knock on wood, I've also never gotten stranded in the last two years and almost 400 hours of flying the PA22 around.

Also curious if people enjoy using Savy mechanic...

This is a subject that really gets me upset. As an A&P/IA, I have seen some really sub par work on aircraft. Also, some stuff where the work may or may not have been acceptable, but the paperwork was so bad that it made the repair seem suspect.
This isn't limited to part 91 aircraft. I was working for a Medevac Helicopter company. I would say who they are, mostly because I had to agree not to, but they are located in Oregon and operate all over the north west. I started becoming suspicious of mechanics at the other bases. I would get a helicopter sent to my base, and would go over the logs, inspection statuses of timed components ect.. All the stuff a mechanic who cares about the bird assigned to him should look into when getting a new bird at a base.
I found a lot of log entries like "150 hour pitch change link inspection completed IAW the aircrafts manual" Seriously! The proper way to make that entry would be "150 hour pitch change link inspection completed IAW AW119 Manual 119.xxx.000.xxx. Ver. 1.4 chapter 12 para 3 steps 1 through 6. No defects noted" or something like that. There is no question of what was done, or how it was done. I have also found that a mechanic who makes a thorough log book entry is doing so because they preformed every step of the inspection, no matter how much of a hurry the company put on them, or how much of a PITA the inspection is to do. When I make an entry, it is a statement that I did all of the inspection exactly as the manufacturer of the aircraft intended.

So on day I get a call from the pilot on duty. I was the on call mechanic on duty and I got a call whenever anything wasn't exactly right with the aircraft. The pilot called and said he had lot all oil pressure and had to land at another base (about 200 miles from my base)
The mechanics at that base found that the engine was 11 quarts low. No leaks were found, so the next step was an oil consumption inspection. P&W estimates that inspection to take 12 man hours minimum to complete and several factory tools that the company did not own. Yet, the mechanic did this inspection in about 30 minutes. The log book entry was something like "oil consumption inspection completed" No reference to what was done, or using what reference.

The aircraft was returned to service and was in flight when I was able to access the electronic log book entry. I was concerned and took action to make sure the aircraft would only fly back to it's base, where I was waiting to do additional diagnostics. But, a revenue flight is way more important and the aircraft stopped to pick up a critical patient at a rural hospital and returned to where is had just had the oil issue.
They didn't make it. He had an engine failure, but was able to get to an international airport and land safely. The patient didn't make it the the hospital.
I filed a internal safety report on my version of what happened. The FAA has access to those reports and they can not be edited once made. I stood behind what I said in the report. A critical inspection was not completed, the mechanic falsified a log entry, and we lost a patient and could have lost the flight crew. I got fired for speaking up.

That's why we have AIR21. If you work for an air carrier, and you don't know about AIR21, you should.

The mechanic had his license suspended, I got back and forward pay, and a little for my trouble. The company was forced to make some changes in record keeping and mechanic training.

Now I am shopping for an aircraft. I have walked away from several due to crappy log books. I think I am too picky, but that's okay. I am taking a break from aviation and selling real estate for a while. My wife and I have been doing pretty good at it and the longer I wait to buy an airplane, the more money I have to buy one with. I'll probably end up with a like new Maule by spring. How bad can a new aircraft be if it's only had 10 annuals? Don't answer, I know. But at least it's not 50 years of bad annuals.

David

Not to minimize the need to do proper maintenance and annual inspections but,
I'm sorta surprised more airplanes don't fall out of the sky.

I haven't been doing this long but everyone (including me) has a handful of first person verifiable egregious workmanship discoveries that will curl your toes. But even in seriously sad shape, the planes keep flying.

Maybe it's a testament to the engineers that they were able to factor in incompetent wrench slingers to their designs.

Each time I or my IA finds something wrong, I feel relieved. And I alway feel uncomfortable when we don't find something wrong.

DavidB. wrote: How bad can a new aircraft be if it's only had 10 annuals? Don't answer, I know. But at least it's not 50 years of bad annuals.

David

Man what a story David. Good for you sticking to what's right.

BTW, this one only had 18 annuals [emoji15] (7300 TT though)

Back in the "dark ages", I was transferred to a new Army base and assigned to be the platoon maintenance officer. There was an E7 running the maintenance teams who was basically "retired on the job" (less than 13 months to retirement) and just didn't care about anything. The helicopters were in terrible shape, with only 70% of the aircraft in flyable condition at any point in time, and less than 60% of those that were flyable were actually capable of performing all of the missions our unit could be assigned to perform. Every time I went out to pre-flight, I would find major issues that required several hours to be repaired. It got to the point where the assigned crew-chiefs would start complaining before we even went out to pre-flight. That E7 had done a number on their attitudes – they had completely lost any pride in their work.

After several incidents where the E7 was caught ordering someone to sign off work having been completed that had NOT been completed, or improperly signing something off as "acceptable" that was clearly not acceptable according to the maintenance manuals, I managed to get him relieved as the platoon sergeant, and re-assigned to a non-leadership position until he retired. (At that point in time, an E7 or above within 18 months of retirement was basically untouchable.) Once he was gone, I started working with the crew chiefs to re-establish pride in their work. My first step was to offer a steak dinner to the first guy whose aircraft made it through pre-flight without the pilot finding a "grounding" condition (something so unsafe that the airplane had to be fixed before flight). It took 5 weeks before I had to pay off – that's how bad things were.

But once that first guy earned his steak dinner, the other guys started getting with the program, and before another month went by, we had to raise the bar so that the steak dinner was earned only if NO defects were found at all. Another couple of months, and I was going broke paying for the steak dinners, so we stopped the program. But by that time, it had become a pride thing for the crew chiefs to "beat" the pilots. They were actually wearing out the maintenance manuals, checking tolerances, torque values, etc. and noting them in the logs when they fixed something. It was a complete revelation to them to learn that the logbook entries should include the references they used in the repairs – something they were certainly taught during their training, but had NEVER practiced, thanks to the old platoon sergeant. But once they "got it" the unit's readiness for combat was increased dramatically. I knew we had a "win" when the crew chiefs started inviting me to come pre-flight their aircraft, even when it wasn't scheduled to fly. They were just DARING me to find anything wrong... I loved it!

In less than 6 months after we relieved the E7, our unit's operational availability rate went from about 60% to 95%, and the fully mission capable rate went from about 50% to 85%. And three of our E4 and E5 maintenance guys were singled out for "soldier of the month" within the squadron during that year. Not too long after that, our unit (as part of the 7th Infantry Division) was deployed to Panama in support of Operation Just Cause. I had moved on by then, but I recognized some of the tail numbers of the helicopters in our unit, and one of our pilots was interviewed on the news one night.

I am proud to say that my annual has been completed. It took 3 weeks, though the guys had to stop work on it to work on their real jobs from time to time. It is now up to date on ALL AD's, all structural defects were repaired, all cable tensions checked, all pulleys and pivot points lubed, new CORRECT hardware in many places, all required placards are now in place, all rats nest wiring removed or corrected, all unused or non-working items removed.

The horizontal had 4 broken, bent or separated ribs. Cylinder 5 that last August was only holding 48 psi was now down to 30, it was overhauled and reinstalled. Under the right gear leg in the floor were two broken off rivets. Balance tube on motor was cracked. Non-legal access panel in fuselage under the horizontal was beefed up and made sound again. Brake hose coming off of right master cylinder was replaced. Badly rusted hardware on the exhaust was replaced (exhaust was brand new last August, but installed with old hardware). Several placards were installed where previously non-existent.

I also installed an EDM 730 with carb temp, oil temp, OAT, and fuel flow, after removing an old EI system. I removed an old clock and replaced it with a digital one with 2 USB charging ports. I removed 3 unused breakers and about 30 or 40 feet of wiring. The box of removed wiring and parts weighs 8 pounds.

I removed one fishing lure from the floor, one mouse nest, and an assortment of old hardware.

I spent a few thousand dollars more than I expected, but I cannot be more pleased at this point. Now I KNOW what I've got.

After all that you should put it on the scales and get the real weight.
Good Luck

It's not often that I read every post in a thread, even more rare I post.

In my humble opinion, this is the single largest issue facing aviation in today's climate.
I purchased a 185 almost two years ago from an IA, had another IA perform a pre-buy/annual and went to pick her up. I knew there were some issues that I would have to deal with however this is the list so far....

Flew the airplane home and dug into her,
-New engine mount; #4 cylinder; propeller overhaul; new gascolator; replaced all engine control linkage; replaced incorrect hardware securing the landing gear, wings, vertical stabilizer and other various items; new tail spring; new tail spring yoke, new tailwheel head, new seat track, new trim jack screw assemblies, new aileron rod-ends, new control universal's etc..... (I think you get the point)

Not a single of the above items was done "just because". Each of these items was due to an airworthiness issue. My point is that just because a certificated mechanic cash's your check DOES NOT make the aircraft safe. These types of annuals are the maintenance equivalent of someone taking an instrument lesson "just to know enough to get out of trouble". There is no such thing as "just enough". Either keep learning, striving for your best or hang up the preverbal leather jacket and stick to your vespa.

Ok rant over. As a professional pilot and A&P/IA, hearing stories like the ones you all have told makes me upset with the other people in this world I share this special skill-set with. Flying is fun, but even more serious. We as a community need to be better stewards of the industry for ourselves and future aviators.

Be safe out there all, there is not much I hate more than a toast to those that have gone west.....

S.patJ3 wrote: Ok rant over. As a professional pilot and A&P/IA, hearing stories like the ones you all have told makes me upset with the other people in this world I share this special skill-set with. Flying is fun, but even more serious. We as a community need to be better stewards of the industry for ourselves and future aviators.

Be safe out there all, there is not much I hate more than a toast to those that have gone west.....

Nice write up, sorry you went through some tough luck with your airplane. I’m still trying to get my airplane back into airworthy condition. Eye opening what you can find if you really look for it. What was up with your tailspring and tailwheel? Mine are also in need of replacement.