Airplane went down this am in KTRK. Saw the whole thing go down. Thats number 2 this week. I had just pulled my plane out of the hanger when the twin (Piper Aztec) went by on the runway at what looked like a high speed taxi. He started to rotate WAY TO GOD DAMN EARLY, and ended up in a very nose high attitude. Stayed in ground effect for a very long time, sort of, and wobbled at about 25-30' off the ground for maybe 150' or so. Left wing veered to the left, caught the wingtip on the ground as he was sinking (still in an extremely nose high attitude) and then cart wheeled maybe 5 or 6 times into a ball of smoke and fire just off the runway in the transient parking area. The guy was able to crawl out barley and escape the explosion. Care flight and fire crews were on scene in about 2 minutes (given there on the field here) and had him air lifted to Reno in less than 5 minutes from the time he went in. The guy is very lucky if he lives...Not really certain how he did, if he does...

Not pointing a finger, but man not really certain what he was thinking with the nose high attitude. It was an obvious stall. Classic actually. He had plenty of room to abort or push the nose down to gain airspeed and then even land again on the same runway going straight ahead. He did not have an elevator problem. He could off pulled the power and shut her down. Everyone that watched this were just scratching there heads on this one.

Were all pilot here. Be safe gang! Make for darn certain your I's and T's are dotted and crossed and pay attention. I hope the guy lives...

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_18945060

This next one has a photo: It also says the engine was sputtering...I did not hear that. I saw a really early rotation with not enough airspeed!! It was directly in front of me!!

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/09/21/plane-crashes-at-truckee-airport-injuries-reported/

AKT

Dang, that is awful, we have dropped a lot of planes this year. There was a second plane that crashed at an airshow the same day the Reno event happened that has barely made the news. It seems it is just plane after plane after plane.

Fly by the numbers folks.

I hope the best to this pilot and family

I like this one...the pilot is quoted here as "somehow on takeoff the plane just stalled"....Hmmm...because your nose was pointing at the sky!!! I hope he thanks someone upstairs to the fact he is going to live

http://www.sierrasun.com/article/20110921/NEWS/110929977/1066&parentprofile=1

Bad burns is a very miserable/unpredictable road to recovery.....
There are infections that can derail recovery completely.

Hell of a price to pay-either way.
lc

I'd say fly by the book-AND your butt! (...an educated butt! )

Littlecub wrote:
I'd say fly by the book-AND your butt! (...an educated butt! )

and use straight up common sense!

Dang Kevin, did someone put an aviation jinx on you? Seriously though sorry you had to witness this. Hope the guy pulls through. Would hate to hear the earful he's going to get from his wife when he gets out of the hospital.

It sucks seeing people get hurt, not fun.

Makes me wonder if he had any high elevation airport experience. There's a world of difference in flying out of a 5900' elevation airport (KTRK) vs. a 500' elevation airport (KBFL). I can imagine him seeing his usual Vx speed coming up, raising the nose, the airplane flies out of ground effect, starts to mush because he's actually well slower than Vx, and so he reacts by pulling back to try to make it climb--not an uncommon reaction. Or maybe he just reacted to the higher ground speed feeling, that he was going a lot faster on the ground than he was accustomed to at his home airport.

BTW, the "engines sputtering" reported by the one witness might well have been the sound of them running with severely over-rich mixtures, again a common low-lander's mistake at a high elevation airport.

Cary

What gets me about this one is the guy was we'll assume multi engine rated probably instrument rated too. Neither of those is an easy checkride. How many hours of dual would have gotten to do that? Was Density altitude never mentioned? Lots of people had to sign someplace that he was a competent pilot. I don't think I could ever be a CFI for this reason as I would feel resposible if a student of mine ever got hurt doing something silly. More money than common sense perhaps? Let's hope for his families sake he makes it and there were some unforeseen circumstances and Kevin was just seeing things )

And we bitch about the Monday Morning Quarterbacking.....

....of TV "Experts"

45 years of aviation and I have done some real dumb shit things. My luck bag held thats all. A prayer for this pilot, his loved ones, his pain and suffering.

There but for the Grace of God go I.

Bob

Kevin,this has not been a good year for you. Step back,take a deep breath and think about where your head may be after all this.
Almost a week now since Reno and I still only run the uncomplicated machines and ride the gentle horses. Not ready for PIC yet.
I don't know how those that have seen battle or those pro first responders do it.

Good to see you here Chance! We need to connect! Left you a voice mail.

Been working on my Commercial check ride set for next week...the plane is gonna look funny with the hydraulic skis on her this weekend!

Its flying season! Weather is good. Make the most of it and be safe!

AKT

kevin, everytime one starts their engine one must think what the hell am i doing? temps, runway surface, altitude,wind,etc. and this is something we all learn after many mistakes. flying with you brought out the best of us concerning the aforementioned. john

z3skybolt wrote:And we bitch about the Monday Morning Quarterbacking.....

....of TV "Experts"

45 years of aviation and I have done some real dumb shit things. My luck bag held thats all. A prayer for this pilot, his loved ones, his pain and suffering.

There but for the Grace of God go I.

Bob

AMEN!!!

Go ahead and pontificate about some dumb ass move a guy did on here, but it seems some of the posters on here (this kid included) have done some pretty dumb stunts in past.

Be safe, people, but also be gentle with your fellow aviator. We all make mistakes and oftentimes it's really hard to imagine what it was like in the other fellow's shoes.

MTV

There was zero monday morning QBing here. Just an honest observation. No doubt we all can screw the pooch! Been there done that for certain.

Thank heavens he is ok and will fly again.

Kevin

z3skybolt wrote:And we bitch about the Monday Morning Quarterbacking.....

....of TV "Experts"

45 years of aviation and I have done some real dumb shit things. My luck bag held thats all. A prayer for this pilot, his loved ones, his pain and suffering.

There but for the Grace of God go I.

Bob

Bob:
You "took the words etc." I know a lot about what works but almost nothing about what will fail to work. I did something about a week ago that worked but I still shake my head. If it hadn't worked I would have made the papers.

For sure, we're all capable of "stupid pilot tricks".

When I lived and instructed in Laramie, I saw lots of travelers make mistakes due to not being up on high elevation ops, which is why I wondered if the Aztec pilot simply lacked high elevation experience. I saw several airplanes either return to the ramp before taking off after not getting sufficient lift-off speed before seeing the end of the runway approaching, or on a couple of occasions, return after taking off but because they couldn't climb very well, and the real problem was a failure to lean properly during run-up. I can't think of any that I spoke to who had been taught how to lean during run-up, or that they even should. One particular one was a 2-pilot operation of a Convair 240--both experienced commercial pilots, but neither had considered leaning on the ground.

We also had several non-injury accidents, caused by low-lander pilots thinking that they could fly out of there similar to the way they flew back home. One particular recollection is of a Saratoga, which went through the perimeter fence after attempting an intersection take-off, which gave him roughly 3200', quite a bit longer than his runway back home in Iowa. But the density altitude that day of over 10,000' made it impossible for his otherwise capable airplane to leave the ground in that short a distance. Whether leaning was an issue in that case, I don't recall. But there are reasons why Laramie's runways at that time were 7700' and 6300' (he was on the shorter one). Since that time, the longer runway has been extended to 8500'.

Except for students who train at high elevation airports, I doubt that very many students get much information about high elevation operations. I certainly didn't, learning in Anchorage, and in the other forums that I participate in, many of the students have no clue about things like leaning on the ground--in fact, some never get to lean at all, because they religiously follow their airplane's POH which talks about leaning above 3000' (which they interpret to mean actual MSL, not DA). When I started my commercial training after moving to Laramie was when I learned about leaning and the effects of DA, and it was all new news to me.

I don't say any of this to blame the Aztec pilot for his mishap, but I think it's fair to speculate that his experience with high DA ops was probably minimal.

Cary

I just want to clarify I was not bashing the pilot himself but rather the lack of training across the board. After being through two different crew positions in the Airforce from start to finish that included close to 1000 hours of instruction I was very disappointed after my initial PPl checkride. I felt very empowered with very little training after getting that piece of paper. I'm still a very low time pilot and learn something everyday. There's no substitute for experience...something about a bag of luck.....

I don't know what any of you are talking about...I don't know ANYone who has done dumb shit in an airplane, let alone pushed their limits especially in recent memory, and definitely not yours truly. I heard a good phrase from a fellow aviator the other day, "Don't mistake enthusiasm for skill." I'm all for pushing the envelope, but do so with the knowledge of risks involved.

Of course, when I mentioned this to my wife, she replies, "Bad things come in threes..."

So at what point does a pilot become truly accountable among their peers for their actions, and the distinction between honest mistake and inexperience turn into negligence and recklessness? At what point do you start genuinely laying into the guy who continues to screw up again and again, continually demonstrates incompetence, or shows no respect for the safety of others?

Sure, we all do dumb stuff, but that's not an excuse or pardon. It's an empathy we lend to our brethren. The adage of the "bag of luck vs the bag of experience" is a good one, but too many people have died juggling their bags. Tough love and preaching a mentality of smart choices will go much farther for us than glamorization of the notion that "we all make mistakes or do stupid stuff." It's tough to philosophize from the grave.

Everything is a choice. Had this guy cartwheeled through a family picnic because he was inexperienced at higher altitude ops, would we still be shrugging it off? What if his grandkid had burned up in the wreckage because he horsed it off the ground early? It seems like the actual consequences determine the punishment more so than the demonstrated potential.

We're a culture of personalities (BCP) that tend more toward the cowboy, maverick, rogue attitude, et al, and any appeal for prudence is met with the same general argument: "Don't tell me what to do," or "I'm not afraid." I see this MUCH more often amongst us than I do around flight schools and your standard pavement beaters. I don't think it accomplishes much beyond the stroking of one's own ego. This is one of those disciplines where the grizzled vet doesn't listen very well to the cautious freshman, even if it's the universal truth.

I'm not immune. I want you all to know how courageous and competent I am!!! How's that for a drift...