This is a repost that I originally posted on RansClan, but thought I'd solicit as many options as I could:

A pit is starting to form in my stomach.

We started working on all of the paperwork/checklists to ensure that everything that is required for my Sport Pilot Solo. It appears as though my instructor is planning on next week Wed or Thursday....weather and me not screwing up pending.

After the solo we'll continue working on skills together, but he'll also be clearing me for my 5 hours minimum of solo/cross country work. I have a sneaking suspicion, that I'll probably exceed the minimum hours of solo as a student. I never realized how exciting flying S-Patterns along a roadway could be and my obsession/compulsion to master this will probably ensure many an hour of practice in preparation for my Check Ride (if I can ever find an airplane to do it in).

I'm currently training in a '46 T-Craft BC12-d (see my first video of my Ah-Ha moment/day where I finally figured out rudder control, take offs and landings) - http://youtu.be/FsiiyQNaInQ and with my big fat butt in there, space is limited - yoke mounts wont work as the yoke goes within 1 inch of my chest when I'm pulling back on landings.

I'm pretty confident of where I am when I'm flying locally but as we've gotten further and further out, the endless miles of farm fields start to look alike and as long as I've got my instructor in the airplane, he's pretty much a human-GPS. When he's no longer in the plane however, the addition of a GPS seems like a logical choice.

My first thought is an iPad with a Dual Electronics XGPS150 Bluetooth GPS receiver - but I'm looking at $600 for the iPad, another $100 for the Bluetooth GPS receiver - for a total of 7 bills....that's before mounting options to keep it safe in the aircraft, Foreflight subscription etc. So I'm looking at AROUND close to a grand. Now...as a financial advisor, whose business model is built around being accessible 24 hours a day to my clients, I can probably find enough use for the iPad in the non-flying hours to use it for work related purposes and thus write off the cost of the iPad - but one write-off does not a great deal make.....and keep in mind....I'm in the market to purchase an airplane - and cash in hand makes for a better down payment, better financing etc.

My second thought is something simple like a Garmin GPS 296. I chose the 296 because I saw one in action on 2006 S6-S from the right seat and I could (with my crappy eyesight) see the screen and the displayed data pretty easily It appeared easy to operate with just a few button pushes and would more than fit/exceed my mission as a low time, local/in-state/non-cross country flying fat dude. eBay prices (my standard for comparing prices) are pretty much all over the place - there's quite a few "bundles" out there with a used 296 and a bunch of cheap accessories to make it look like you're getting a lot, but you're really not - I've seen prices starting at $400 for a basic GPS, battery, extension antenna and xtra battery up to almost a grand for one of the "bundles."

Those are my two thoughts. From an investment standpoint, I figure the iPad has other uses, but with a 296, it's mission specific and if I end up buying a Champ (I'll call it my S7 Trainer) then I'll most likely need a portable GPS, but if I get an airplane with a GPS already in it, I'll always have a backup in case the primary goes down.

I welcome anyone's thoughts on the above, if I'm missing something in my thought process, please illuminate it now, what I dont want to do is start collecting Aviation crap that I end up not needing and shudder at the thought of selling as I'll lose so much from the initial investment.

Additionally.....if there are any other suggestions - I welcome them as well.....Keep in mind however - my reading vision is crap, so resolution and brightness are issues for me. (I dont see greyscale very well).

Thanks!!!!

Sean aka Windknot aka "Chunk Yeager"

get the ipad but skip the external gps. The internal one is perfectly fine. You will eventually want something like the stratus which is a gps receiver plus an ads-b receiver for in flight weather. Use the hundred bucks you were going to use on the dual gps and purchase foreflight.

Your instructor wasn't born as a human GPS, it's a learned skill. You, too, can master it, and you should. Visualize the airport location, and your compass direction as you leave it. Keep track of how fast you are flying, and in what direction. Keep thinking about the airport that you left, and where it is located, and where you are located in relation to it. If you're enroute to another airport, constantly visualize the two airports, and your position between them. On long XC flights, formalize it by keeping a log of marking your position on the chart every ten minutes. Practice makes perfect, and eventually you will always know your approximate position. Supplement your new skills with a GPS to give a little more accuracy, and to measure ground speed and to expose wind direction and velocity.

You don't specify the nature of your eyesight issues, but for most pilots, they can't focus up close. If that's a problem for you, trot down to the local Mall Wart and head for the sporting goods section. In the fishing section, most stores will have polarized sunglasses with bifocal lenses for around $10. Highly recommended!

If aviation GPS prices bother you (and they should) then you might try using a hiking GPS ($40 used on ebay), just enter all the area airports as waypoints BEFORE you go flying. As a supplement to old-school pilotage, they can be quite useful.

Your clever "Chunk Yeager" quip implies that you are overweight. I've heard people give plenty of good reasons to get it under control. I've never heard a good reason yet to continue down the fat path. You're not the only one. Search for the thread on this site titled "Has anyone ever considered their own weight?". Lots of inspiration there.

Hi Sean,

*edit- I just saw your comment about gray scale so the 196 info may not be too applicable. But battery life is still worth consideration if you have no electrical system.*

I used to also sweat it whether an iPad was a worthwhile aviation purchase. In hindsight: don't sweat it. It's a worthwhile purchase period. It's nice that it also happens to be useful for aviation. Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but I can't help thinking that with every one of these posts that's hemming and hawing about an iPad in the cockpit. Just my two cents.

As for your specific situation, I also soloed and got my first 300 or so hours in a 1941 BC-12D. I deliberately got a Garmin 196 because the AA batteries last 16 hours in one of those, instead of 4 hours in a color model like the 296. If you don't have an electrical system, and you plan to spend a lot more time in the T-craft, you might want to compare battery life among your options. The iPad has some perks here, being easily rechargeable.

Main downside to an iPad in the cockpit is the poor visibility in direct sunlight. And size- you gotta put it somewhere. From your description, even a kneeboard mount might be a little tight for your setup. Depends on how long you'll stay with the T-Craft.

I still take the 196 along on every flight. I bring the iPad for longer XCs away from my home area. Either way, you can't go wrong, assuming anyone will still sell you a 196. What I hear about the new touch screens is pretty negative. Folks here say it's too easy to touch the wrong button in turbulence. They have a "back" button, but that only helps if you manage to hit it instead of the button right next to it.

Good luck, and good on ya for doing your PPL in a taildragger

-DP

I'll sell u my old 496 for $300
Down side is I alway ran it on ships power and the unit is 5 years old so I bet the battery is pretty weak.
You can probably buy a new battery and then have a spare but i dont know what that costs.
I alway liked it well but upgraded at Oshkosh to the 795.
Anyway give me a call if it's something u might want.
Blu
970-250-2132

My suggestion: Buy the 496, or something near that size. The IPad is HUGE in a small cockpit, and there's simply no place to put it in a GA aircraft that doesn't cause issues. In a T-Craft????? Not unless you passenger seat is empty. So, are you always going to fly by yourself?

Also, not all IPads have an internal GPS. The only ones with an internal GPS are the 3G/4G enabled ones....bring more money. And, they may or may not be able to see enough satellites if parked on a passenger seat. I use a DUAL remote GPS with an IPad Three, but only if there's nobody with me, and I can put it on the passenger seat next to me.

You can get yoke mounts for the 396/496 or any of the other smaller Garmin units that fit AHEAD of the yoke itself, ie: between the hand grip and the instrument panel. So, unless that yoke comes right up against the panel at full down elevator, it should work, and get it out of your way. in any case, these things are orders of magnitude smaller than an IPad.

Another IPad issue is visibility. The screen really isn't designed for good viewability in glare. It works and you can see it, but glare is much more of an issue than it is for the aviation handheld GPS units.

Or, get an IPhone and use it, much smaller and user friendly. Can't see the display? Get some reading glasses.

MTV

My 2 cents worth of advice here, based on 38 years of playing with airplanes and a very short career as a flight instructor, is to get a cheap, simple, backpack style GPS that you can stick in a blank spot on the panel with velcro, then LEARN TO NAVIGATE THE PLANE WITHOUT IT, and use it as a backup or to confirm you are where you think you are. I've personally flown all over the western US with nothing except a sectional chart, compass, wristwatch, and LOOK OUT THE WINDSHIELD to see where I am. I realise I am a very small minority nowdays, but if the GPS battery dies I will not get lost, run out of fuel, and crash. Seriously, in a T-craft, learn to fly the plane first, don't worry about a GPS, or other geek toys, until you have 100-200 hours in it.

Blu wrote:I'll sell u my old 496 for $300
Down side is I alway ran it on ships power and the unit is 5 years old so I bet the battery is pretty weak.
You can probably buy a new battery and then have a spare but i dont know what that costs.
I alway liked it well but upgraded at Oshkosh to the 795.
Anyway give me a call if it's something u might want.
Blu
970-250-2132

Buy this and don't look back, before some here snakes it out from under you.
I have used virtually every gps in gamins line up, as well as most of the competition. The 496 coupled with xm is still IMHO the one that all others a judged by, and with the exception of the 796 (assuming a larger than cub size airplane) it is still my favorite. I liked them so much I had a dedicated one docked in the play planes and work plane...

I keep an IPad loaded with fore flight in the seat pocket , glove box etc... But for me it is a reference tool, and don't see it as viable navigation... It is certainly no match for a 496 on any level....

And while I agree whole heart-idly with others about learning to navigate without , that is simply a smoking deal, that you will be able to make good use of long after you have mastered navigation, and broadened you travels....

And if for some reason this deal didn't pan out I would suggest saving for a 396 or 496 anyways


Take care, Rob

Blu wrote:I'll sell u my old 496 for $300
Down side is I alway ran it on ships power and the unit is 5 years old so I bet the battery is pretty weak.
You can probably buy a new battery and then have a spare but i dont know what that costs.
I alway liked it well but upgraded at Oshkosh to the 795.
Anyway give me a call if it's something u might want.
Blu
970-250-2132

SOLD!!!!!!!!!!

This is one of the side aspects of getting into aviation that I appreciate the most.

Great guys helping out other guys!!!!


http://youtu.be/mCnZqg1RgGA

I'm with everyone else. Get a gps for backup, but learn to navigate without. I started my private years ago, got busy and poor with school and never finished. Back then, I was flying aero club Warriors with dual nav/coms and adf. I used the hell out of the radios to navigate, and always planned my flights around the nav aids. My long x country ended up being 4.2 hrs, and pretty much covered most of Ohio, all courtesy of the vor/adf system, Anyway, I remember a few tense moments when ATC routed me off my course on a solo x county and I had to find myself/adjust my course when I got out of their area. It should have been easy with the radios, I just got nervous/flustered for a minute or two, because I hadn't been paying good attention to where I was on the map. Anyway, I finally finished up my private earlier this year and this time I was renting cessna 150/152s with crappy nav /coms and most of the places I wanted to go didn't have convenient vors. Probably 95 percent of the navigation I have done since I got back into flying has been pilotage/dead reckoning. I'll probably buy an ipad for backup at some point, but I find that I really enjoy navigating the old way. I like piloting routes on a sectional and seeing how close my calcs and course come out. Plus, If I want to look at instruments all day, I can play Flight sim X for free. If I'm paying for a plane, it's really nice (not to mention safer) to be looking out the window.

You are SO EARLY in your training to be even considering using a GPS. Pre-solo is not the time to be even thinking about any kind of navigation. As you progress after you solo, you'll learn pilotage and ded-reckoning and gradually learn electronic navigation as well. But don't get the cart before the horse. Learn to fly the airplane.

In the tight confines of a T-craft, and if you're on the portly side of life, when you do decide to get a GPS, consider a Garmin 96C. It's [large] pocket size, mounts to the yoke between the yoke and panel, has a color screen, takes AA batteries which last and last, and is generally one of the best small aviation GPSs around--and Garmin still makes it and sells it and services it. All of the X96 series except the 196 have been discontinued, although Garmin still services them and provides updates.

But really, having a GPS in a T-craft is icing on the cake, when the cake is already scrumptious. Flying low and slow and using your chart and eyeballs is probably the most fun flying there is. Don't spoil the treat by thinking you must rely on a GPS.

Cary

Cary wrote: You are SO EARLY in your training to be even considering using a GPS. Pre-solo is not the time to be even thinking about any kind of navigation. As you progress after you solo, you'll learn pilotage and ded-reckoning and gradually learn electronic navigation as well. But don't get the cart before the horse. Learn to fly the airplane......

I agree-- learn to fly the plane now, get the whizbang shit later.
That said, I've looked at ipads & personally I think they're too much equipment for the job. Great for flight planning etc beforehand, but too big and too busy for use in the cockpit. I'm also not sure that touchscreen is the way to go, even in normal air let alone in turbulence.
That looks like a real deal Blu is offering you on that 496. My first GPS was a Garmin Pilot 3, it as great. I upgraded only because I bought a new airplane & it came with a garmin 196 & dock. The 3 did everything the 196 does, everything that I actually need that is, and did it in a smaller package. The larger screen on the 196 is easier to see though. You can rationalize your way up the scale.... 296 would be nice for the color & the terrain alert, 396 would be nice for the XM weather, 496 would be nice for....whatever additional features it has. And on, & on, & on.....

I agree with all posters that encourage you to learn to navigate with a map and compass first. These are basic skills and I can testify that too many pilots don't have them today. Remember that the first thing your examiner will do on your check ride is turn yours off.

That said, it isn't answering your question. For the kind of flying your are going to do you need something basic with a long living battery. Don't get something non-aviation. Since you don't have an electrical system battery life is key. Get something grey scale like a 196...they last a long time. I have a Lowrance 600 I would sell you for a $100 bucks plus shipping, but it doesn't have the battery life you need.

196

Daryl

hotrod150 wrote:

Cary wrote: You are SO EARLY in your training to be even considering using a GPS. Pre-solo is not the time to be even thinking about any kind of navigation. As you progress after you solo, you'll learn pilotage and ded-reckoning and gradually learn electronic navigation as well. But don't get the cart before the horse. Learn to fly the airplane......

I don't think GPS's should be used by new pilots. Acquiring old school navigation skills is a learning curve and face it most humans don't like to learn stuff. Having a GPS will make you quickly dependent on it, even for the shortest trip. Take the money that you save and put it towards something far more important like gas or rental fees and dispense with the toys for now. Learn how to fly and navigate the plane by your wits, it will help you build intuition and understanding navigating in a 3 d world.
Now that said, Blu Where do I send that check to

I guess I'm a little confused.....maybe I didn't word the original post very well.......

Doesn't everyone plan out their cross country trips on Charts first? I cant imagine someone just getting into an airplane - especially a small non-complex airplane with limited range etc and setting a GPS Destination and just going......seriously? Do people do that? What happens if their GPS goes down? What are they going to do then?

Before I ever drive somewhere that I'm not familiar with, I pull out my map books (I've got several in each vehicle) and I plan my route carefully as I dont know where I'm going.......I want to know WHERE i'm going, before I go....if that makes sense. When I return to a spot that I've been to before (like my favorite trout fishing spots) I STILL get out the map books, mark the pages with Post its and have it/them ready should I need to divert from my usual path. Oh, sure I use a GPS too, but that's always secondary to the maps and the pre-planned route.

I guess I'm a little naive, I just ASSUMED that everyone plans out a flight on paper (or iPad if you're so inclined as long as you have paper backups) ahead of time. Hopefully I wont run into too many of those guys - sounds kid of unsafe to me - kind of like why I stopped scuba diving when I repeatedly observed complacency, lack of preparedness and an unusual lack of respect for Mr. Murphy and his Law in the people that I dove with. It just wasn't worth it.

BUT!!!! That being said....in this day and age - NOT having a GPS is akin in my book to NOT BEING PREPARED as well. The technology is there, it's easily accessible, It's cheap (relatively) and can be mounted in most if not all airplanes in some fashion or another. Now I'm not accusing the non-GPS guys of being Luddites, but I'll bet you a dollar that if GPS was available in 1946 when the T-Craft I'm flying or the Champ I'm looking to buy were made.......they'd have come with it installed. I agree the old way is good - it's cool...using PENCILS....PAPER......RULERS......YOUR BRAINS......That's why I'm flying a 66 year old airplane.....they're cool. But a little of the New World isn't necessarily a bad thing either.



So.....if anyone wants to fly with me.......make sure you arrive early and bring your charts....we'll be doing the flight planning before we ever turn a prop......and feel free to bring coffee....i LOVE coffee.

Windknot wrote:Doesn't everyone plan out their cross country trips on Charts first? I cant imagine someone just getting into an airplane - especially a small non-complex airplane with limited range etc and setting a GPS Destination and just going......seriously?

No... Not at all. Some of us have no clue where we want to go till we get there. We like to wander.

And if the GPS quits, so what. We are well grounded in basic navigational skills starting with Mark I eyeballs, a whiskey compass, and maybe a map or two. The mental challenge, and the rewards of navigation done right are one of the pure joys of flying, and an absolute basic skill that needs to be mastered before you ever launch off in an airplane by yourself to points unknown.

That said, am I gonna give up flying with a GPS? Hell no. I'm lazy, and I like my XM radio. But, unlike where you are in your flying career... I have already learned that stuff.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:

Windknot wrote:Doesn't everyone plan out their cross country trips on Charts first? I cant imagine someone just getting into an airplane - especially a small non-complex airplane with limited range etc and setting a GPS Destination and just going......seriously?

No... Not at all. Some of us have no clue where we want to go till we get there. We like to wander.

Gump

Thats me to a T Gump
i am often airborn for an 30 minutes before i even decide where im going

I never draw my route out on a chart. I primarily use my 496 for navigating. I'm not afraid of it dying on me either though. I always have sectionals/wac charts in the airplane for back up and usually have a pretty damn good idea of where I'm at. If My GPS dies I'll just use my compass, chart, and look out the window and navigate by landmarks. It's really not that big of a deal and I feel completely comfortable flying this way. I'm sure others will disagree with my technique but it hasn't failed me for the 10 years I've been flying (I know not much time compared to many others here). I do some fairly long cross country flights each year too. I always spend a lot of time checking out routes on skyvector or similiar sites before a big cross country to see what all of my options are.

GumpAir wrote:

Windknot wrote:Doesn't everyone plan out their cross country trips on Charts first? I cant imagine someone just getting into an airplane - especially a small non-complex airplane with limited range etc and setting a GPS Destination and just going......seriously?

No... Not at all. Some of us have no clue where we want to go till we get there. We like to wander.

And if the GPS quits, so what. We are well grounded in basic navigational skills starting with Mark I eyeballs, a whiskey compass, and maybe a map or two. The mental challenge, and the rewards of navigation done right are one of the pure joys of flying, and an absolute basic skill that needs to be mastered before you ever launch off in an airplane by yourself to points unknown.

That said, am I gonna give up flying with a GPS? Hell no. I'm lazy, and I like my XM radio. But, unlike where you are in your flying career... I have already learned that stuff.

Gump

Gump - I just noticed your signature line. You must know my ex-wife!!!!

I've got tears coming out of my eyes right now!!!

"Love is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmachine which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come."