I am guilty of having a set of those expensive headsets. I used to have a Cherokee Six with tons of super foam insulation and there really wasn't that much difference between normal and noise canceling headsets. I now own a 180 HP Super Cub with NO insulation and all I can say is WOW.

Which brings up another thing.... How much noise can uber anr handle?

I have the last Bose offering, the 'x'. They are great in the typical Cessna / Beech / Piper... They are WORSE than a passive headset on anything with a round motor, or turbine that is swinging a big prop up close. In a PC 12 / Meridian type, no worries, they're great, put them on in a Ag cat or air tractor, and they are worthless. On take off they will start making noise of their own trying to keep up with the prop noise.

I see the comment about the A20, but am reluctant to try anything else 'Bose' just yet, has anyone with Bose x experience compared the NEW Zulus ?
I love the technology, but am not too crazy about Boses.

Just some notes to toss in the pot.
One of the best lower cost ANR sets is DRE of Palo Alto CA.
Many years ago we tested most of the headset offerings at the time.
An OSHA type noise metering device was placed in the Piper Pawnee tow plane with 260hp, fixed pitch prop and no tank between engine and pilot. Average tow was 12 mins and the noise at pilot seat, 120 decibels.
The best in those days was the Telex though very heavy.
The Bose X cannot handle noise above 110 decibel and cuts in and out and so it is with some others.
My comment re the new Bose was based on having a Bose X and borrowing the new A20 a couple weeks ago. The difference is very noticeable with my ear but maybe not everyones.
The David Clark produces continuous 'white' noise, and so do some others. It subtly fatigues me more than some other sets, and I don't like to listen to it.
The difference of flying behind a two blade or three blade on same airplane with same engine is a lot, though the tested decibels are only 3 or 4 difference at flyover height of about 1200ft.
I can fly 8 hours with the two blade and 12 with the three blade to receive the same fatigue affect. I presume it has to do with the pulses going through the airframe and past the cockpit windows.
A few years ago at Oshkosh every headset manufacturer allowed me to take their top headset to the other manufacturers sound test booths to try them. The only company that would not, and they were not polite about it was Lightspeed thus I have not supported them.

maules.com wrote:[noise] subtly fatigues me and I don't like to listen to it.

I paraphrased you slightly, but that pretty much sums up this whole thing for me.

My reason's for using ANR's:

1. They are lighter to wear,
2. They are MUCH more comfortable to wear on long flights,
3. I hear radio conversations much easier with them,
4. I like to listen to music,
5. My plane is noisy and Zulus work better than passive sets,
6. I can make phone calls,
7. My wife likes them and will fly with me more often.

My reason's for using ANR's:

1. I fly 12 hours/week and I have to make and receive phone calls for work,

The bonus is:
2. They are lighter to wear,
3. They are MUCH more comfortable to wear on long flights,
4. I hear radio conversations much easier with them,
5. I like to listen to xm radio,
6. My plane is noisy and they work better than passive sets.

PS: I don't need AC, power windows, or auto trans, etc in my cars, but I like that stuff. I would save cash if I drove a plain jane checker cab.

I fly a unlimited aerobatic monoplane, very noisy, not much sound deadening with it. I like to hear what anyone is saying, yes, i do have zulu's, and they do make a big difference. In my opinion, well worth the investment.

kevbert asked:

What type of batteries do the various models use?
If the batteries go dead, do the speakers still work, or does it become a boat anchor?

My Pacific Coast Avionics PCA-ANR uses one 9V battery. I see the PCA-ANR-II uses two AA batteries. The speakers still work if the battery goes dead. It happened to me once and it scared me. The engine was suddenly louder than I thought it had ever been even without a headset. I thought the exhaust had broken off at the manifold or something.

ANR headsets are worth every penny, just like bushwheels, dammit. They are worth it! Just spend the money.

With my current cell phone and Telex ANR headset, I've found my best way to make phone calls is to simply flip the phone open and stick it under the headset earcup. Now I have a hands free phone. For some reason, this basic cheap flip phone has a great noise canceling mike and my caller often doesn't know I'm in the air, and I can hear them fine. This works better for me then using patch cord/plug in between the phone and headset, keep it simple sometimes is the best way! BTW, I'm sure I'm not the only grey beard pilot who cannot frigging believe we can fly around and yak on the phone, I get a real kick out of it and what a convinence, you younger pilots, think about it, didn't use to be that way!

I have the first gen.Bose and love them.
I have hearing loss from being in the home construction biz.for 25yrs,
and the ability to hear the atc is worth it.
Btw. I just checked out the new Bose and like em,but want to try the Zulus first.Never know.
FWIW.for me,it was money well spent.

Rob wrote:Which brings up another thing.... How much noise can uber anr handle?

I have the last Bose offering, the 'x'. They are great in the typical Cessna / Beech / Piper... They are WORSE than a passive headset on anything with a round motor, or turbine that is swinging a big prop up close. In a PC 12 / Meridian type, no worries, they're great, put them on in a Ag cat or air tractor, and they are worthless. On take off they will start making noise of their own trying to keep up with the prop noise.

I see the comment about the A20, but am reluctant to try anything else 'Bose' just yet, has anyone with Bose x experience compared the NEW Zulus ?
I love the technology, but am not too crazy about Boses.

Yes, I found the same thing with the Bose headsets. It seems to me that they went too far trying to minimize clamping pressure with those headsets, and they rely TOO much on the ANR. As a result, in a REALLY noisy environment, as you say, the ANR really struggles to catch up, and makes more noise than without.

The Lightspeed is lightyears ahead in this realm. Get hold of a set and give them a try. I think you'll find that they are far better than the Bose X in a really noisy environment.

That said, I was out this afternoon with the windows open taking pictures and I had to have the Lightspeeds adjusted just about right to prevent wind noise and the ANR response. But, after fiddling just a bit, no worries.

MTV

My rational for my Zulus:

1) So I wont be saying "WHAT!!!" all the time when I get older

2) I fly for a living, so I dont mess around with crap equipment

3) I am able to make phone calls via bluetooth or listen to some tunes on the long legs

4) I prefer the feel of the nice leather pads over the chinese plastic/rubber ones found on the cheapies

5) I have a pair of nice DC 10-56s with the comfort kit, gel pads and fabric covers, mike muff, etc. for the pax in my personal plane/backup set. When I fly certain planes I can tell a large difference between the two. other planes only a small difference. Based on this there is a reason the 10-56s stay in their bag in my plane, where as the Zulus are on my desk at work.

6) I take VERY good care of my equipment, added to the seeing plenty of guys that have had their headset for decades, I figured what is $800 bucks for 20years of service, that's like 3 bucks a month to not go def!! kinda a no-brainer for me

I thought the data was interesting. If I understood it right, it measured total dB of noise...not by frequency.


Couple observations (not data points):
-in a T6 (which is about as noisy as anything gets...it'll sterilize mice)...I used DC passives for many years (and we won't even talk about the years before anyone wore headsets...all my primary training with the instructor yelling to be heard over the engine noise); when the Bose came out it was great in most planes, but the Six overpowered it...worse than a passive. I was finally talked into trying a Lightspeed Zulu...wow, what a difference. I can actually hear the radio

-the portion of the ear which has the cilia, has the cilia for high frequency at the "worst" point...right in line with the canal. If I understand it correctly, that in turn means that those "high frequency cilia" take the brunt of any noise...regardless of the frequency of that noise...which is why most of us start losing high frequency hearing first...which makes speech understanding more difficult. (If any of you are audiologists, or ENTs, please clarify this if I'm incorrectly explaining it).

-That all in turn translates to noise "control" by frequency is important, as well as total noise attenuation. That, to me, would explain why there might be a similar reduction in "total noise", but the ANRs might do better with "perceived" noise...that they control noise in a set of frequencies that is more perceptible to us.


thoughts?

So is the clarity of the reception in the ANRs a function of the ANR or the superior quality speaker in the expensive headsets. After all, one would expect Bose to have highest quality speakers.
Interestingly enough I liked using the Zulus for the clarity of sound, but I have yet to find an ANR headset where I do not hear that low level buzzing sound which like others I find fatiguing after a while.

From http://www.aearo.com/pdf/hearingcons/anr.pdf:

"The ANR device performs very well up through 250 Hz but at the important frequencies of 500 and 1000 Hz where the active circuitry provides no advantage or even a net loss, the performance is inferior to a good conventional earmuff. At and
above 2 kHz, where ANR neither adds nor detracts from performance, the conventional and ANR earmuffs are essentially identical."

And the conclusion of the paper, which actually addresses my question regarding the speaker quality vs. ANR:

"In applications beyond general industry, however, there are situations wherein ANR provide valuable
performance benefits. These are generally found in general aviation and certain military environments.
In those applications communications are usually integral to the circumaural device and thus ANR is not
simply being implemented for additional noise reduction, but is also important for optimizing speech and
signal transmission in high-level low-frequency dominated noises."

p.s. I'm glad this conversation has turned civil and we can actually exchange some information... no thanks to some who felt personally assaulted when their expenditure choices were questioned.

AKclimber wrote:p.s. I'm glad this conversation has turned civil and we can actually exchange some information... no thanks to some who felt personally assaulted when their expenditure choices were questioned.

I was more personally assaulted by the under-appreciation of Cheech and Chong, and I apologize-- I just can't shake it.

Thanks be to the stiff upper lips of the BCP collective.

Scored a Bose not too long ago.....My David Clark I have had since I was lucky enough to solo in is still in operation......It will most likely last longer than me....The Bose is MUCH nicer....its an older model but it is MUCH better for me on a day to day basis.If you are flying around in an airplane that does not go 200+ and has all the doors on, then the clark may be ok .... I have both on the Hanger couch and pick up the Bose every time...........

Zane wrote:

nmflyguy wrote:What I can't figure out is why the moderator/owner of an aviation board enjoys acting like such an asshole at times, and seems bent on making the discussion personal, diving into the discussion apparently for the purpose of attacking the person who put some effort into providing information and asking for feedback, rather than just saying, you know, "I think you're wrong because ... or, "I like my Zulu headset for the following reasons ... ". Like some of the other posters did. You know, like a mature thoughtful person would do. You're not impressing.

Cuz there's something extra douchbaggy and uptight about you in particular that causes me to suspend any principles I thought I had, something that ignites my need to fight with people on the Internet. I'm not proud. Asshole is an appropriate term. By my own policies I should be banned.

Vick's first response to you was the most insightful of all in my opinion. I don't care if you buy or like Zulus or are happy with your muppet earmuffs-- Start a blog cuz you answer all your own questions in your post-- you don't see 800-1000 dollars worth of value in a headset.

You should never post when you have been drinking. I had not read all this thread. Entertaining. Matt ban Zane for name calling.

I understand both sides of this argument as I still use my old trusty non-ANR David Clark's a lot. Next time I get some free money, I'm calling Lightspeed. I am extremely impressed by not only their product, but their support of the backcountrypilot.org community.

Thankfully, I was standing on some mountain when this thread started.

Others have already posted re the benefits of ANR over passive.

I have high frequency hearing loss. Bose-X works well for me most of the time unless noise is very loud . . . then more clamping pressure is needed. In a Pawnee, to get the X to work I had to wrap some bungee cord around the top spring to increase clamping pressure. I have them so tight I'm sure it makes my eyes bulge.

I tried the "old" Zulu in the Pawnee . . . works better than the non-bungeed Bose-X, except the ANR is occasionally overwhelmed and they'll "motorboat" making an awful racket. Went back to the X while waiting for the new Sennheiser S1 Digital to arrive. (Yup, I reckon my hearing and comfort is worth another $1000, at least to me.)

Sennheiser S1 Digital! Wowser! Dang near like walking into a forest compared to Bose-X in the Pawnee. I can even hear other radios no problem. Bluetooth for phone and music good.

Rationale? Your OP seems more a statement than honestly seeking an answer. If all I had was cotten balls, I'd have 'em packed in there while I figured out how to get the best and most comfortable hearing protection I could afford. When you've lost a bunch already, protecting what's left gets real important.

bumper

Does digital mean less,or no "white noise"?