PAMR MX wrote:They all have low hours because they recently blew up. High time franklins don't exist.

Yes there are. But not the ones that an idiot worked on or operated.

172heavy wrote:

PAMR MX wrote:They all have low hours because they recently blew up. High time franklins don't exist.

Yes there are, only not the ones that an idiot worked on or operated.

Amen brother.


The 6A-350 is a race engine and not something that can be thrown together like most of these Volkswagen engines we have. Sure, there are some tricks like not torquing intakes if the cylinders aren't a little loose and you do need a few tools - so what. The pistons can be milled or you can find some helicopter pistons - but I still would not run straight mogas in an engine designed for the added benefits of lead lubrication. It is a better engine than most but no better than the builder or mechanic that works on it. I hope to see some new hard parts available soon, the market is ripe for it.

Thanks for all the info. Learning allot here.
172heavy very informative.
Lots of power for the weight, fairly inexpensive, and super smooth sounds like some of the good qualities.
Who or what shop will take the time to find real parts and do the quality control to verify the parts in order to build an engine that will make it to TBO? Like you said the "Franklin" guy was putting yours together with junk. Who is to trust with these things?

No one mentioned that the tach on a Franklin spins backwards and that's just weird. [emoji3]

PAMR MX wrote:No one mentioned that the tach on a Franklin spins backwards and that's just weird. [emoji3]

J-3's are weird, too.

There is one vendor that I feel is trust worthy, She has run the gauntlet, Susan Prall, Owner an operator of Franklin Engine Co. in Texas. All I can say is she sees it all, I would have to go with what she recommends. There very well be others, however I will in all likely hood never let any one do any thing to one of my engines with out me standing over them, and then only if I have no other choice.

Battson wrote:Can someone school me on the Franklin 220 engine:

> what makes them different from other mid-200 horsepower engines in terms of their design?

> are they any different, from an operational perspective?

> I understand they have been out of production (like many things for aircraft) for quite some time, why - did they fail as a company, lawsuits, ???

> what sets them apart, are they superior to Lycoming / TCM engines in some way(s), or are they deficient in some ways?

Here is something that we did not cover, They sound way Cool, taxing out or doing a run up the sound like a race motor, also my 172 will do what I call an airplane burn out, If I apply full throttle and max. RPM on a run up it will drag the locked tires across the run up area. every one knows when I'm coming or going , FBO's at other air ports, tell me that they know my voice and N number but can tell it's me coming in for miles away. If you are flying a Lyc. or Cont.when was the last time any one got on the radio and asked what you had under the cowl ? Yea I'm 60 + but there is still a bit of the kid with the pack of cigs rolled up in his T-shirt sleeve in me. I had not seen a friend of mine in about 25 years, he agreed to meet me at the airport in Pahrump, his wife was looking at every airplane and pilot that landed for the last half hour, asking is that him? They heard an aircraft in the distance as it got closer he said, that will be Joe, he was right. I have to say I love the combination, but for the most part I have to agree with MTV.

CamTom12 wrote:I've never flown behind one, but I love the idea of the 220. Not being able to run mogas would suck though. Even high test e-0 mogas is no good with that engine?

Lets start by saying we were flying an experimental, If you had an engine analyzer, and knew how to use it, maybe, I have never tried it but there is no reason that I can think of other than pre ignition/ detonation issues, in the event that they start to occur the first thing is the exhaust temps drop and then the CHT begins to climb. You must cool it down now! When that occurs your on a slippery slope to engine failure.

Here is what I would like to do or see happen, start making Franklin EXPERMINTAL engines and parts, do for franklin what Superior did with the LYC. Fill the 220 HP light weight void. Make a better part and improve where ever possible and eventually certify it. Free up the certified parts for those that need them. How many experimental aircraft builders out there would love to bolt one of these on there aircraft if they knew they could get parts and service?

I for one am WAY tired of Romans proud Polish attitude, he isn't producing the parts or service that he has been promising for many years now, what is the saying, sh#t or get off the pot, is how I think it go's I researched the damper on the Franklin 220 that is in short supply and found that the Hershel company makers of the Fluid Dampener had purchased the original manufacture of the viscous damper, no one knew this till I found it, I spoke with the engineering department and found that they had just refurbished a test bench and had the original prints for the Franklin dampener, my viscous damper was the first Franklin dampener that had been tested in many years, as far as I know they have the only test bench in existence, they expressed interest in making new and better dampeners for our engines, I was instrumental in putting Hershel Co. owner and Roman together, Hershel co. agreed to make dampers for Franklin, Roman blew the deal by telling them that it would be only a temporary deal till he could start producing then in Poland, OK so now it's been about six or seven years, do you see any new dampeners?

I need to do another post on how Franklin an American ICON was driven into bankruptcy by LYC. and then illegally sold to Poland and finally shut down by Pratt and Whitney, but that is another story.

FOR THE REST OF THE STORY
We are waiting, and it sounds like you have some good insight as to the fall of the Franklin Engine Co. in 1975 and I'm sure most here are as anxious to hear that history as I am. Conglomerates buying up the competition seems to be standard business practice & is a shame as it stifles advancement in a productline & helps promote monopolys.

vaughans

Zzz wrote:One thing I always thought was cool was the access panel on the top of the case that lets you inspect the camshaft without splitting the case.

The top cover is awesome - but the camshaft is on the bottom, under the crank. Not saying you can't see the cam though. Actually the undermount cam is one of the superior design qualities - cam is less likely to gather condensation on long term storage and is better lubricated while running.

pilot wrote:

Zzz wrote:One thing I always thought was cool was the access panel on the top of the case that lets you inspect the camshaft without splitting the case.

The top cover is awesome - but the camshaft is on the bottom, under the crank. Not saying you can't see the cam though. Actually the undermount cam is one of the superior design qualities - cam is less likely to gather condensation on long term storage and is better lubricated while running.

Ahh I see. Lycoming probably needs that inspection panel more than any other design.

Zzz wrote:

pilot wrote:

Zzz wrote:One thing I always thought was cool was the access panel on the top of the case that lets you inspect the camshaft without splitting the case.

The top cover is awesome - but the camshaft is on the bottom, under the crank. Not saying you can't see the cam though. Actually the undermount cam is one of the superior design qualities - cam is less likely to gather condensation on long term storage and is better lubricated while running.

Ahh I see. Lycoming probably needs that inspection panel more than any other design.

It would be really nice!!!

Fly frequently and use CamGuard, and you won't have to look at your cam....

MTV

mtv wrote:Fly frequently and use CamGuard, and you won't have to look at your cam....

MTV

That's what I'm hoping!

vaughans wrote:FOR THE REST OF THE STORY
We are waiting, and it sounds like you have some good insight as to the fall of the Franklin Engine Co. in 1975 and I'm sure most here are as anxious to hear that history as I am. Conglomerates buying up the competition seems to be standard business practice & is a shame as it stifles advancement in a productline & helps promote monopolys.

vaughans

I am endeavoring to collect factual information, on the demise of American Franklin aircraft engines, I have a lot of hearsay information that is likely true, as heard from George Heinley's widow Iren, ( George Heinley worked for and was an engineer with Franklin and developed the original STC for the Cessna 175/172 215/220 HP) I should have sent her a tape recorder while she was still with us. She told me that the Company was solvent, not bankrupt or broke, but when the signature holder on a company loan died, LYC purchased the note from the lien holder and refused payment from any one other than the original signature holder of the loan, thus forcing Franklin into receivership, once they had ownership, their hired goons entered the factory and broke up tooling with sledge hammers, ending any further production of American Franklin aircraft engines, (I suspect that is why the PZL engines use the early light first generation cylinders and not the second generation heavy cylinders for the 220) There was a stipulation made by the bankruptcy Courts that the sale and bidding was limited to USA interests only, several weeks after the sale, tooling and dies to manufacture Franklin aircraft engines were being loaded on a ship on there way to Poland. Susan Prall has some of the original documentation that she is willing to share with me/us, she is currently busy but is willing to copy and forward some of the legal documents that lead to American Franklin's demise. This much I know as fact, about 2002 Pratt and Whitney/ United Technologies purchased a section of PZL aircraft engine manufacturing along with it the Franklin engine line, it is my understanding that they had no interest in manufacturing reciprocating aircraft engines and shut down the Franklin line. They could make a movie out of this.

Zzz wrote:

mtv wrote:Fly frequently and use CamGuard, and you won't have to look at your cam....

MTV

That's what I'm hoping!

I hope that I'm not beating this to death, BUT;Aircraft engines and corrosion: In the beginning, automobile engines and most others shared the same crank case ventilation system as an aircraft engine have today and they suffered the same corrosion problems, a simple road draft tube, on some vents were added to the valve cover to facilitate air movement through the engine while the car was moving, some engines had lymph pumps to evacuate blow by gasses that contained moisture, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur that were damaging engines. In the early 1960’s the PCV valves were introduced as a method of re burning blow by and reducing pollution, a phenomena occurred, automobile engines started running much longer, breaking the 100,000mi mark, of course better oil, machine technology also played into this, but the PCV valve was the largest contributor, moisture, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur were now being scavenged and were no longer able to dissolve into the oil, dramatically increasing the life of the oil and eliminating corrosion and ware of the internal engine parts. So, it’s now 2015 and we (aircraft owners) still have the same crankcase ventilation as a model T Ford. ??????
As for me, I’m using an oil recovery system that uses some of the vacuum system discharge air to evacuate the recovery tank, I return the oil and vacuum discharge air to a forward valve cover, thus circulating fresh air through the engine and discharging the contaminated air out the breather tube, my oil no longer smells sour and on an oil change there are no longer droplets of water in the drained waste oil. Only time will tell.
PS. my franklin has a floating oil pick up and does not pick up oil from the bottom of the sump.

PAMR MX wrote:They all have low hours because they recently blew up. High time franklins don't exist.

I've got a 220 at home that was removed from a Maule with just shy of 2000 hours on it, and as far as I can tell, never had any major work done to it, not even a top OH. All compressions were in the 70's the last time they were checked before removal.

One of the rumors of why they don't seem to last is because people/shops that aren't familiar and experienced with Franklin's rebuild them with looser Lycoming/Continental type tolerances. I don't have any first hand experience, but based on 172 Heavy's experience, and the rumors, I'm doing as much research as possible before deciding on who overhauls mine.

Just got word from my mechanic, who is set to overhaul my Franklin 220, that my parts which were shipped in July have never arrived. I called Susan Prall to inform her of the missing shipment. She looked into the issue and was unable to resolve immediately so she put together another overhaul kit and shipped it out that day! Incredible service! We are very lucky to have her on our side. Thanks Susan!

Loving my 220 so far