Had an interesting experience the other day flying into a Class D airport bordered on one side by a Class C airport and another side by another Class D airport, with a very narrow corridor to access the first Class D airport without being in Class C airspace.

The night before the flight, since I don’t have a transponder, I called the Class C Arrival phone number, told them my intentions, and that I’d like Flight Following if available and if they would prefer that. It was available and they would prefer it (even negative transponder).

The next day I launched and when in range I radioed Class C Arrival and requested Flight Following to the Class D airport I would land.

As I got close to the Class D airport Class C Arrival hadn’t called to hand me off to the Class D Tower. I radioed Class C Arrival but no response. Then Class C Arrival became busy with four or five aircraft.

When I finally had a break in the conversations I radioed Class C Arrival again, I was now a mile and a half from the Class D airport. Class C Arrival told me he had lost me on Radar, and I could contact Class D Tower, which I did.

I was now maybe a mile from the Class D airport at 1,500 feet. Class D Tower cleared me to land, I slipped to the runway. Once I landed Tower asked if I had heard them calling me a few minutes earlier. I told them No, I was still on Class C Arrival’s frequency as I was on flight following and they hadn’t handed me off (because they lost me on Radar and I assume forgot about me since they never radioed me). End of our conversation.

Interesting... I've had a couple of busy times in flight during following when I wondered what was really happening with my track. Luckily never near a towered airport I intended to land to.


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Yeah, often hard to get a word in, especially weekends, in the Anchorage bowl. Also, they very very rarely pickup tube & fabric on their scope.

When I use flight following (read: instrument training) it's not uncommon to have to ask to change frequencies. There also seem to be a handful of new controllers around here, which can get interesting.

So, why not just make things easy and fly straight into Hood without all the flight following business?



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TradeCraft wrote:...So, why not just make things easy and fly straight into Hood without all the flight following business?

First time in, thought it would be a smart way to stay out of trouble. Came out without FF, and now that I know what to do (pretty easy really-who knew) I'll just go into Hood without FF.

Interesting what you say about picking up tube/fabric, figured from far off radar would not pick me up, but I thought in that close they'd definitely paint me. Cool airport Hood.

Pipeline pilots avoid C altogether. If you go low, they don't know. B and D are easy to work with. Only C wants to put you in danger and prevent you doing your job just to get a hit.

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Other than an occasional towered airport, about the only ATC facility I deal with is the Navy air base on Whidbey Island. I don't really want radar service (aka "flight following") but I do like to be on their scope when flying over the water between Pt Townsend and the San Juan islands, just in case. Kinda funny, one day they'll call out traffic several miles away going in the same directions as you - in other words, no factor at all. The next day they might neglect to call out another airplane going the opposite direction within a 1/4 mile of you and a few hundred feet of your altitude. But generally the Navy controllers do a great job and are pretty easy to work with- esp considering that they're dealing with a lot of GA flights (esp on a sunny day), and airline flights going through their sector, plus EF18's and P3's of their own.

Okay, first, let's discuss what APPROACH CONTROL does in the Anchorage Bowl:

Approach Control (NOT Class C approach) provides approach control for ALL the Anchorage Bowl airspace. You are not REQUIRED to contact them before entering the airspace, but it is recommended.

You are NOT required to have a transponder installed when entering the Anchorage Bowl, UNLESS you are specifically entering the ANCHORAGE INTERNATIONAL segment of that airspace, which you were not. No transponder is required by ANY aircraft to fly to/from ANY of the airports in the Anchorage Bowl, EXCEPT Anchorage International segment. Look at the charts, the Charlie airspace specifically exempts ALL airspace in the bowl except the ANC segment.

So, going into Lake Hood without a transponder, you are not required to call ahead---ever. LHD is outside the Charlie airspace. About 25 miles out, call Anchorage Approach on the discreet frequency for the direction you are approaching from (check the charts). Tell them you are VFR to LHD strip (or the lake, but specify) and negative transponder. They will provide traffic service, workload permitting and assuming they can tag you on their radar.

So, at this point, you have "established two way radio communication with ATC", which is required prior to entering Delta airspace, such as LHD. Approach Control will automatically notify LHD controllers that you are inbound on a strip.

BUT, if twer me, at about five miles out, I'd be calling Approach for a frequency change to LHD Tower frequency. It's YOUR responsibility to navigate the airspace. ATC will help, but without a transponder, it's harder. Approach will tag your primary return, but the primary may disappear.

But, in any case, YOU are PIC, and it's your responsibility to notify ATC when you're getting close to destination and you haven't heard from them.

Again, this is busy airspace. YOU need to be more or less familiar with the airspace. It's fine to request ATC assistance, and if you do that, generally they'll be pretty accomodating.

But, when you get at about 5.5 miles from the center of a Delta airspace, you really need to be talking to Tower, NOT Approach. Tell Approach (don't ask) that you're switching to Tower. If they don't acknowledge, or their frequency is too busy, just switch to Hood Tower, and go on.

LHD Tower, ANC Tower and ANC Approach are all in the same facility.....let them sort it out, but this way, you are talking to the folks who are handling traffic in that specific airspace....and who have binoculars and windows to look out of......which Approach does not.

And, finally, get a copy of the Alaska Supplement and/or any other brochures, etc that pertain to the ANC airspace, and read the information therein. It's pretty complex airspace, but once you figure out what you want to do, read up on the instructions for that segment BEFORE you get to the airspace boundary, then follow the instructions. But, understand that around Charley or Bravo airspace, Approach Control works ALL the airspace around the area.

In any case, you were legal, because your initial contact with Approach Control met the requirement for entering Delta airspace (LHD) by having established two way radio communication prior to entry.

MTV

+1 on the Alaska supplement and being able to call your named approach/departure. Saves time and reduces confusion. Learned that from Akgreg going into Lake Hood.

I couldn't agree more with MTV.

I happen to know an ATCer (clearing throat) that has worked in many towers and TRACONs (approach controls) who will tell you as far as radar services from approach are concerned, especially VFR flight following, is a workload permitting service. When the beehive developes and the radar scope turns into a $hit sandwich, VFR flight following becomes priority number last. BUT! if you need to talk to the tower that has jurisdiction over the airport you're inbound to (i.e. 5 miles or less) just switch to the tower and start talking! mainly b/c at that point the tower may (and probably does) have traffic of their own they need to tell you about and sequence you with.

Same thing goes if you're a departure too! If tower is going down the $hitter or maybe they forgot you're on the upwind, just ask... "Hey, N12345 switching to departure"... the tower might come back and say "Negative! TRAFFIC!" or "Aaaa, Yeah contact departure" but it never hurt to check...

My "friend" has a great analogy... every ATC facility, be it tower, radar, or center is like a professional sports team... they have their stars and the have their bench warmers, and ya never know who you're gunna get when you hit the switch. Busy is a relative term for controllers just like Wx mins or runway length is a relative term for pilots... different capabilities come with different backgrounds and experience levels.

Let me just throw this out there too... The ATC system is getting progressively younger/less-experienced. That doesn't mean worse, or anything incendiary but it's just reality.. the 20-30 year vets are retiring and they are being replaced with folks that... well, don't have 20-30 years of ATC experience.

P.S. try not to be (i emphasize "try") that guy who flies under/over Class B,C, or D space at the bare minimum altitude, talking to no one, monitoring the controller issuing traffic to every airplane on frequency, all the mean while thinking to yourself "aaaa, I wonder if he's talking about me? I don't see anything on my ADSB?". If you have the wherewithal to monitor and they're not too busy... just check in. If you don't want a squawk or ATC services just say "I don't want any services, I'm just checkin' in." It goes a really long way!

You would be amazed how often we are on ILS final to major international airports in the 37 and approach forgets to hand us off to tower. I would say this happens at least once per month.

Jughead

Good info MTV and Rickshaw84.

I have a question. I am that guy who never talks to ATC unless I have to. When I first got my private I used to get flight following. My home airport is under the outer ring of class C airspace. I got tired of being vectored all over the countryside so commercial jets could do their thing uninterrupted. I fly the edges of class B and class C and never check in. Why should I check in? I'm at Troutdale.

jugheadF15 wrote:You would be amazed how often we are on ILS final to major international airports in the 37 and approach forgets to hand us off to tower. I would say this happens at least once per month.....

Sorry.....I was eating a milky way.

OregonMaule wrote:Good info MTV and Rickshaw84.

I have a question. I am that guy who never talks to ATC unless I have to. When I first got my private I used to get flight following. My home airport is under the outer ring of class C airspace. I got tired of being vectored all over the countryside so commercial jets could do their thing uninterrupted. I fly the edges of class B and class C and never check in. Why should I check in? I'm at Troutdale.

I don't know your airspace, but I can give you a really good example of why to check in when you're on the edges of B or C. I was returning home, on an IFR flight plan. Denver Approach was having me zig zag a bit through the B because I just happened to be in the area at "bank time", when lots of heavy iron was arriving. So anyway, I'm listening carefully to Approach, when I overheard a conversation, part of which was something like this, between Approach and a 206 which had departed Centennial, which is just south of the B, and was getting VFR vectors through the B enroute to Sidney, NE.

A: Cessna xxxxx, traffic 12 o'clock, 5 miles, squawking VFR, altitude shows 7800', not verified. (apparently right at the northeast edge of the B) Appears to be maneuvering.
C: xxx, looking.
A: xxx, traffic at 12 o'clock, now 3 miles, altitude now shows 7500', not verified, still maneuvering.
C: xxx, looking, still don't see him.
A: xxx, make immediate right turn, traffic at 12 o'clock, half a mile. (shouting) TURN NOW!
C: SH-T THAT WAS CLOSE!

Had Approach known what the unannounced aircraft was doing and was talking to its pilot, that close call might have been averted. Also another good example of how see and avoid doesn't work all that well, because the 206 pilot had been told where to look, was apparently doing that, and yet didn't see the other airplane until the very last moment.

Cary

OregonMaule wrote:Good info MTV and Rickshaw84.

I have a question. I am that guy who never talks to ATC unless I have to. When I first got my private I used to get flight following. My home airport is under the outer ring of class C airspace. I got tired of being vectored all over the countryside so commercial jets could do their thing uninterrupted. I fly the edges of class B and class C and never check in. Why should I check in? I'm at Troutdale.

That was a great example that Cary gave...

I think as backcountry pilots (or pilots who are really obsessed with backcountry flying, like myself) getting away from it all, exploring new remote wilderness, and challenging flying is what gets us out of bed. Alas we all have 9 to 5s and live near big cities with big airports so there is that reality of flying in a busy area with tons of radio chatter and stress, albeit fun to some folks, its not desirable for some others either.

So as far as TTD is concerned or any other relatively congested airspace for that matter, you can follow the all the airspace shelves and still be "in the way" depending on where you are. Busy airport airspace isn't necessarily the same as ATC airspace... Portland Approach airspace for example goes almost to Mt. St. Helens north, Mt. Hood east, Mcminnville south, and 20+/- from the coast to the west... SFC to 15,000'. a fair amount of airspace.

I can think of many different examples at many different ATC facilities where someone wants to do airwork, not talking to anyone just outside the airport airspace outer ring. In Portland's case about 5 north of BTG VOR between 5000' and 6000'... not a good place to be for the all the PDX arrivals from SEA descending. Its legal... but not a good place to be.

Thats an extreme example because... I mean who likes to fly at 5000'? boring

I'd say the most common situation generally speaking for "Anywhere USA" is a guy trucking around between 2000' and 4000' agl about 10 to 12 miles from a controlled airport whether it be class D or C... You think it might be plenty out of the way and clear of the airspace but you might be right on a 10 mile final to that airport and just not realize it till you have a face full of biz jet in your windshield.

VERY generally speaking, most instrument approaches (what those big airport planes are flying) will put an aircraft at 5 mile final around 2000' ish AGL and 10 mile final around 3000' ish... again if you're not sure if that's where your might cut across feel free to check in with the tower or approach and say "Hi, how are ya? this is what I want to do and let me know if I'm in your way." If you are they'll move ya if not they won't.

Hows that for being reallllly long winded!!! yeeesh...

Rickshaw summed it up pretty well, and Cary's example illustrates a point well.

I wandered around many parts of wilderness Alaska for the better part of 30 years, and I still much prefer being "out there" without having to worry about a lot of traffic or about airspace boundaries.

But, I have always done everything in my power to fully understand and comply with procedures in place at busy airports. Survival should be a good enough reason, but how about the potential to wind up having a "chat" with the FAA?

Better yet, I guarantee you that when you roll into ANC Bowl airspace (or Portland, Seattle, etc) and call up Approach Control and you KNOW what you're doing because you've studied the airspace, that the controllers will quickly recognize your behavior as that of a professional. And, what that means is that often they'll give you a little more slack than they will the guy who pops up in the middle of their parade and asks for vectors, etc.

As Tom Wardleigh used to ask private pilots in Alaska: "So, if you say you're not a professional pilot, what does that make you? An UNprofessional pilot?"

For several years I flew in and out of Fairbanks airspace, which isn't as busy as ANC, but it's busy and VERY diverse, in a Husky with no transponder. When the weather was down, getting a special VFR clearance can be tough in an airplane with no transponder. So, I talked to the ATC Chief, who was a good guy. He gave me a "procedure": fly to a certain point and circle (just outside the Delta airspace) below 2000 feet, and wait for the Special. A week or so later, I was returning from up north and FAI was 2 miles, and BUSY. A helicopter just got told to remain clear of the airspace.....pilot asked how long a delay.....controller replied "45 minutes". Ouch!

So, I proceeded to the "spot", told Approach I was there and orbiting and needed a SVFR clearance into the FAI airspace. They rogered that and told me to continue holding. Not two minutes later, the controller cleared a 207 into the airspace from the north. ATC called me, and pointed out the 207, who was a mile or so east and higher and asked if I could see him and maintain visual into the surface area. "Yep". "Husky xxx is cleared into the FAI surface area, maintain special VFR conditions at or below 2,000 feet while in the surface area and maintain visual separation from the 207 ahead." Turns out that "spot" was just to the west of the instrument approach corridor to FAI.

Point is, if they know that YOU know what you're doing, many times they'll trust you just a bit more than they might someone they don't know or who is stumbling around. And, when the weather sucks, that can be golden.

But, it should be reward enough to know that you can play with the big guys and come across as knowing what you're doing.

Not long after I got to Crookston, I overheard an instructor briefing a student on a cross country, headed to Minneapolis. The plan was to go to an uncontrolled field on the east side of the Bravo airspace, and under the shelf of the B. The instructor was telling the student that they'd fly around the Bravo airspace enroute, rather than go through the Bravo. A bit later, I asked the CFI why not go through the B airspace? He responded that "ATC won't let us", so I volunteered to ride along in the back seat.

Sure enough, we got close to the airspace, and the student called Approach and informed them we were headed for that field on the SE side of the Bravo. Sure enough, the Controller said "descend and maintain 3,500 and remain clear of the Minneapolis Class Delta Airspace". Hmmm.

Looking at the chart, I told the student to call the APPROACH controller back and request that he get us clearance through the Anoka County and Holman Class Delta airspace. Remember, this guy is an approach controller for the AREA, not just MSP. The student made that request, the controller responded "Warrior xxx, climb and maintain 4,500 feet, cleared into the Minneapolis Class Bravo airspace, proceed direct to xxxx"

The instructor asked me "What just happened there?" I told him that the approach controller would have had to make two phone calls to tower controllers to comply with our reasonable request. And, HE would be flight following us through those two Delta airspaces at low level. So, it was easier for the Approach controller to simply clear us into his Bravo airspace, and get us out of his way ASAP. Make it easier for him to do what you want, and he'll see things your way. And, the fact that our request suggested we knew how the system works might have led him to trust us a bit more as well.

For what it's worth.

MTV

Thank you for taking the time to answer. That was a lot of typing. I'll try checking in and if they offer services I'll tell them no services requested just checking in. I'll see how it works out.
Cheers Rob


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Anchorage airspace can be very confusing at times and busy beyond belief. Best suggestion is to not worry about flight following, but do know exactly where you are at all times relative to different airspace, and know what approach/departure route you are on. Approach will help very much, but when busy will not have time to deal with us little guys. I dont mean this in a condescending manner, but flying up here can be very different than down south, and while, YES, the rules are the same, the execution can sometimes differ.

You sound like a very experienced pilot following the right procedures....just sometimes they get tossed aside.

safe flying

mtv wrote:....The instructor asked me "What just happened there?" I told him that the approach controller would have had to make two phone calls to tower controllers to comply with our reasonable request. And, HE would be flight following us through those two Delta airspaces at low level. So, it was easier for the Approach controller to simply clear us into his Bravo airspace, and get us out of his way ASAP. ...

Couldn't the approach controller quite properly have told you to squawk VFR and contact the towers yourself? I had something like that happen once with Whidbey NAS-- I told approach I wanted to fly the shoreline down low (1500' or so), right past the edge of the air base. Approach told me to contact the tower, I was assuming a "hand-off". Nope, my call seemed to take the tower controller by surprise, and he told me to contact approach. I can't recall just how it played out, as it was a number of years ago, but it reminded me of the old go ask your mom/go ask your dad thing when you're a kid.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:....The instructor asked me "What just happened there?" I told him that the approach controller would have had to make two phone calls to tower controllers to comply with our reasonable request. And, HE would be flight following us through those two Delta airspaces at low level. So, it was easier for the Approach controller to simply clear us into his Bravo airspace, and get us out of his way ASAP. ...

Couldn't the approach controller quite properly have told you to squawk VFR and contact the towers yourself? I had something like that happen once with Whidbey NAS-- I told approach I wanted to fly the shoreline down low (1500' or so), right past the edge of the air base. Approach told me to contact the tower, I was assuming a "hand-off". Nope, my call seemed to take the tower controller by surprise, and he told me to contact approach. I can't recall just how it played out, as it was a number of years ago, but it reminded me of the old go ask your mom/go ask your dad thing when you're a kid.

It kind of depends. Approach controllers responsibility is to coordinate all traffic to and from the airports in their AO. If a Class Bravo controller was really swamped, I would expect them to deny access to the Bravo airspace....maybe. But in this case, the sector of the Bravo that we wanted to transit was essentially empty, and the controller wasn't very busy. But, that was my original point: Approach controllers serve the whole airspace, not just the Bravo or Charlie airspace. And, if you ask them to facilitate your transit UNDER that airspace, that also is part of their job.....again, work load permitting. But, in this case, the easiest thing for the controller was to just plug is into the Bravo airspace, get us through as fast as reasonable, and be done with us.

In the seven years I flew there, I had this exact scenario happen a dozen times, and every time it worked out the same way. Work load permitting....

MTV