Where are guys buying their favourite ground anchors from?

I've been looking around locally, but couldn't find anything at all. I am now planning to buy from the USA.

I want something strong enough to hold down a C180 sized aircraft on a typical dirt / earth surface (i.e. I'm not after ice / snow / gravel anchors - just the normal variety).

Thanks in advance!

What kind do you want? I've got the Claw tie-downs and could send them without the steel nails to save weight, though bargain pricing plus shipping would still be higher than I think they warrant.

I don't find any of the commercially available ground anchors that inspiring. They're all clever, but the holding power is pretty suspect. I don't use the Claw anymore because I simply don't trust it enough to warrant what it weighs.

For backcountry I recommend two or three wooden stakes daisy-chained together with cord. Just cut them flush when you leave, or mark them and use them again. Stakes and an axe are lighter than the commercial tie downs, and hold better. Plus you have an axe...always valuable. Wooden stakes don't cost much, if anything, depending on how you get them.

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... hors-17900

Best I can offer.
Cheers.

Hammer is right. The Claw is an expensive and heavy solution, but I still like and use it. Very convenient. The spikes they use are smooth and fit the arms nicely. I wouldn't give those up to save a bit of shipping.

Are you talking one time use or something you can use several times? I carry duckbills/ gill nets. Duckbills are meant to stay in the ground ( I mark them for the next guy). Gill nets filled with rocks can be reused.
DENNY

For temporary tiedowns, I prefer the "Fly-Ties" over the "Claw". I know of one instance where an arm on a Claw failed, though I'm not sure it really made a difference in that case.

For permanent tiedowns, I have used Duckbill Earh Anchors for decades, with planes tied outdoors 24/7 and never had a failure. Duckbills are generally used by electrical linemen for guying poles, so you can often find them at electrical contractors, but often these outfits sell only to licensed contractors. Here's a link to their web page: http://www.earthanchor.com/duckbill/

Forestry Suppliers sells a range of sizes of these things. These are VERY light, since the toggle is aluminum, so most of the weight is in the cable. I've used a piece of rebar to drive them, since their drive rods are kind of short. I like to get them driven in as far as possible.

For years, I used two sets of these, four per set, to secure seaplanes on the float pond in Fairbanks. So, these things were actually in the water much of their lives. After the first twelve or fifteen years, i got nervous and replaced some of them....but they were still in great shape. Cables are stainless.

MTV

Abe's Tiedowns (the 5-kit) for non-permanent/temporary solutions, and Duckbill Earth Anchors for permanent ones.

http://www.abesaviation.com

Oh, and Alaska Wing Covers with spoilers

http://www.alaskawingcovers.com/

I use a set of Claws, though I cobbled together 24" stakes our of steel rod. The 'stock' steel stakes are just long nails and way to short for really good holding power. I guess if I am headed somewhere with really rocky or severely compacted soil I might use the shorter 'stock' steel stakes. So far that's not been necessary. I think the biggest weakness of the Claw is the hinge where the three arms come together at the center. If there's much twisting action I suppose it could fail. If you've not reviewed AvWeb's video where they tested several different tiedown kits you might invest 5 minutes. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loq1olceSIE and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIuYK_eEQ9c.

Here's a test of Fly Ties, Claw, and Abe's at several backcountry airstrips:

http://www.abesaviation.com/pull_tests.asp

Notice that in 42 different tests, only ONCE did any of the rigs hold 1,050 pounds, and that same rig (Abe's double anchor with holding rods) pulled out at only 280 pounds at a different location.

Even 280 pounds is better than nothing, but none of these rigs provide much real security, and they are all completely dependent on the soil characteristics where you land...something you can guess at, but will never really know.

Whether they're worth the weight and cost is an individual choice, but nobody should be counting on them to hold their airplane during a real strong blow. They might hold...they might not. You won't know till it happens.

For years, I carried some home-made ground anchors made from 1 1/2" x 15" angle iron with an angled cut to "sharpen" them on the down end, with a chain link welded to the top end of them to run the tie-down line through. They were heavy, strong, easy to install, and hard as heck to extract from the ground. I wouldn't recommend them.

But I've had a set of The Claw for about 8 or 9 years. Although I've read the various reports and seen the various testing videos, I'm in no hurry to change to another system, since The Claw has worked well for me. I doubt that they'd work in really sandy soil very well (not sure if anything temporary would work--maybe Abe's because of the spade design), but in turf and hard pasture soil, they work quite well. They've held in 50 knot winds at OSH (turf) and what I estimated as 40 knot winds in hard pasture soil (La Garita). Although I've heard of a leg breaking on The Claw, I've never actually seen a first person report of such, nor any pictures.

One mistake that I've seen pilots make in using The Claw is spreading them out so that the tie-downs are at an angle. That is appropriate for some tie-down contraptions and is most common with permanent ground anchors, but the manufacturer of The Claw is pretty explicit that the tie-downs should be vertical for strongest and best use.

According to The Claw website, there are a couple of distributors in Australia, but unfortunately none in New Zealand. The package weighs about 8 lbs., so that might not be all that expensive to ship, anyway. It includes the 3 ground anchors, 9 spikes, 3 nylon tie-down ropes, and a modified hammer for pounding in and extracting the spikes. I carry an extra hammer, a small 2 lb. sledge--much easier to pound in, especially in hard rocky soil.

I have nothing against Abe's tie-downs, except that in hard rocky soils, I doubt that they could be pounded in--it's hard enough at times to get the spikes of The Claw into that kind of soil. If I was regularly tying down in sandy soil, then I think I'd consider a set of Abe's. Perhaps just having longer pins in The Claw would work as well, or at least better than the stock pins.

In general terms, I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect temporary tie-down system. The kind of soil makes a huge difference, whether it's in holding power or in ease of installation. How the tie-down is installed and used also makes a big difference.

Cary

Hammer wrote:Here's a test of Fly Ties, Claw, and Abe's at several backcountry airstrips:

http://www.abesaviation.com/pull_tests.asp

Notice that in 42 different tests, only ONCE did any of the rigs hold 1,050 pounds, and that same rig (Abe's double anchor with holding rods) pulled out at only 280 pounds at a different location.

Even 280 pounds is better than nothing, but none of these rigs provide much real security, and they are all completely dependent on the soil characteristics where you land...something you can guess at, but will never really know.

Whether they're worth the weight and cost is an individual choice, but nobody should be counting on them to hold their airplane during a real strong blow. They might hold...they might not. You won't know till it happens.

Last year, my cub rode through the big roll cloud and gust front that hit the field the day before the show started. Peak winds were up there....fifty plus gusts. Cub rode that out just fine, tied down with Fly Ties.

Here's the deal: No, these aren't perfect solutions, but they are about all we have that are actually practical for general use.

So, bad mouth them all you like, but if you've got a better solution, let us know about it.

The twenty years I worked in central and northern Alaska, I carried three Duck Bill Earth Anchors, a drive rod and hammer with me everyplace I went in an airplane. I planned to use them if conditions got so bad that the "alternatives" weren't going to hold. Close to ten thousand hours, much of it off airport, and parked out a lot, and I never had to drive those duck bills in.

There may come a time, but for 99 % of what we see, Fly Ties or the Claw will do fine.

The rest is why I have insurance.

MTV

mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:Here's a test of Fly Ties, Claw, and Abe's at several backcountry airstrips:

http://www.abesaviation.com/pull_tests.asp

Notice that in 42 different tests, only ONCE did any of the rigs hold 1,050 pounds, and that same rig (Abe's double anchor with holding rods) pulled out at only 280 pounds at a different location.

Even 280 pounds is better than nothing, but none of these rigs provide much real security, and they are all completely dependent on the soil characteristics where you land...something you can guess at, but will never really know.

Whether they're worth the weight and cost is an individual choice, but nobody should be counting on them to hold their airplane during a real strong blow. They might hold...they might not. You won't know till it happens.

Last year, my cub rode through the big roll cloud and gust front that hit the field the day before the show started. Peak winds were up there....fifty plus gusts. Cub rode that out just fine, tied down with Fly Ties.

Here's the deal: No, these aren't perfect solutions, but they are about all we have that are actually practical for general use.

So, bad mouth them all you like, but if you've got a better solution, let us know about it.

The twenty years I worked in central and northern Alaska, I carried three Duck Bill Earth Anchors, a drive rod and hammer with me everyplace I went in an airplane. I planned to use them if conditions got so bad that the "alternatives" weren't going to hold. Close to ten thousand hours, much of it off airport, and parked out a lot, and I never had to drive those duck bills in.

There may come a time, but for 99 % of what we see, Fly Ties or the Claw will do fine.

The rest is why I have insurance.

MTV

So you were using fly-ties those twenty years? I don't know what the "alternatives" were for your tie downs so it's hard to comment on that. Pretty sure Fly Ties weren't around yet, though.

My point regarding the inherent weakness of the engineered portable ground anchors is simply that in real life testing they don't hold anything close to what the manufactures usually claim. If you feel comfortable using them, great. Just know ahead of time what the real holding power is and plan accordingly. I don't see pointing out the holding power verses the weight and expense of the engineered anchors as bad-mouthing.

You've told folks on multiple occasions that piling up a few hundred pounds of rocks is a waste of time, but the anchors you're using don't test any better than that in real life conditions, so which is it? Is a few hundred pounds of anchor good enough or not? Not trying to pick a fight...I just have a hard time reckoning the two points of view.

Obviously any amount of anchor is better than none. But some folks are thinking that these engineered field anchors are the equal of permanent ground anchors, and they aren't. Pointing that out isn't inappropriate in this thread.

As for a better system...I use pre-tensioned wooden pickets driven into the ground. It's a bit more work than the engineered systems and it's just as dependent on the holding qualities of the soil, plus the breaking strength of the pickets. But the wooden pickets are MUCH more massive than the steel rods used with the engineered systems, and that's what determines how much anchor they provide in soil. When it's too rocky to drive pickets I tie to rock filled bags, drop the mains into holes, use a half-dozen different tie points...whatever I think will provide anchorage at the time. And if I think it's going to really blow, I don't park there.

I have zero interest in whether other people use pickets or engineered anchors or just leave their airplane united, so long as they're not parked next to me. But having bought a set of engineered anchors, I wish I hadn't. Something wrong with sharing that?

Home made anchors:

(9) long nuts; typically used in commercial HVAC installation on all thread
(3) large washers, thicker the better
(9) long stakes from hardware store
Welding skills (Betcha Battson's got 'em; he built his own airplane...)

The long nuts prevent the stakes from changing their angle in the ground when force is applied, at least until the assembly is bent. I suppose you could double up the washers.

Hammer wrote:

mtv wrote:

Hammer wrote:Here's a test of Fly Ties, Claw, and Abe's at several backcountry airstrips:

http://www.abesaviation.com/pull_tests.asp

Notice that in 42 different tests, only ONCE did any of the rigs hold 1,050 pounds, and that same rig (Abe's double anchor with holding rods) pulled out at only 280 pounds at a different location.

Even 280 pounds is better than nothing, but none of these rigs provide much real security, and they are all completely dependent on the soil characteristics where you land...something you can guess at, but will never really know.

Whether they're worth the weight and cost is an individual choice, but nobody should be counting on them to hold their airplane during a real strong blow. They might hold...they might not. You won't know till it happens.

Last year, my cub rode through the big roll cloud and gust front that hit the field the day before the show started. Peak winds were up there....fifty plus gusts. Cub rode that out just fine, tied down with Fly Ties.

Here's the deal: No, these aren't perfect solutions, but they are about all we have that are actually practical for general use.

So, bad mouth them all you like, but if you've got a better solution, let us know about it.

The twenty years I worked in central and northern Alaska, I carried three Duck Bill Earth Anchors, a drive rod and hammer with me everyplace I went in an airplane. I planned to use them if conditions got so bad that the "alternatives" weren't going to hold. Close to ten thousand hours, much of it off airport, and parked out a lot, and I never had to drive those duck bills in.

There may come a time, but for 99 % of what we see, Fly Ties or the Claw will do fine.

The rest is why I have insurance.

MTV

So you were using fly-ties those twenty years? I don't know what the "alternatives" were for your tie downs so it's hard to comment on that. Pretty sure Fly Ties weren't around yet, though.

My point regarding the inherent weakness of the engineered portable ground anchors is simply that in real life testing they don't hold anything close to what the manufactures usually claim. If you feel comfortable using them, great. Just know ahead of time what the real holding power is and plan accordingly. I don't see pointing out the holding power verses the weight and expense of the engineered anchors as bad-mouthing.

You've told folks on multiple occasions that piling up a few hundred pounds of rocks is a waste of time, but the anchors you're using don't test any better than that in real life conditions, so which is it? Is a few hundred pounds of anchor good enough or not? Not trying to pick a fight...I just have a hard time reckoning the two points of view.

Obviously any amount of anchor is better than none. But some folks are thinking that these engineered field anchors are the equal of permanent ground anchors, and they aren't. Pointing that out isn't inappropriate in this thread.

As for a better system...I use pre-tensioned wooden pickets driven into the ground. It's a bit more work than the engineered systems and it's just as dependent on the holding qualities of the soil, plus the breaking strength of the pickets. But the wooden pickets are MUCH more massive than the steel rods used with the engineered systems, and that's what determines how much anchor they provide in soil. When it's too rocky to drive pickets I tie to rock filled bags, drop the mains into holes, use a half-dozen different tie points...whatever I think will provide anchorage at the time. And if I think it's going to really blow, I don't park there.

I have zero interest in whether other people use pickets or engineered anchors or just leave their airplane united, so long as they're not parked next to me. But having bought a set of engineered anchors, I wish I hadn't. Something wrong with sharing that?

No, most of that time in Alaska we didn't have things like Fly Ties or the Claw. Which is one of the reasons that I REALLY like those systems now. I carried duckbills with me much of that time, and used them rarely out in the bush. Fortunately, in those cases, I was able to just leave them there when I was done. Mostly, I just parked the plane......because it was often in places not conducive to driving anything in the ground. On floats, I've partially flooded the floats a couple times.....water is heavy, and it's also a bitch to pump OUT of the floats the next day.

Nothing wrong with pointing out the limitations of what you refer to as "engineered solutions". My point was simply that, in SOME soils, these things obviously offer far better holding power than you suggest. And, there are a lot of places where you can carry around a tarp/cargo net to pile rocks on and you simply won't find any rocks. That said, one of the reasons I have never been a fan of piling rocks on a tarp or net is that you have to pile a LOT of rocks to get up to 400 pounds, and it takes a pretty fair size tarp/net to contain all those rocks. And, that is something you're carrying around all the time. And, the BEST you're going to do is load a few hundred pounds of rocks, whereas at least in some soils, the Fly Ties or Claw will hold more than that, and they are compact, practical to carry, install and remove.

And, finally, I had a friend who got in touch with me once to come out to his camp on the Alaska Peninsula. His Super Cub was on its back, with two huge logs laying across the wings, which were firmly tied to the logs. That plane had pulled those huge logs over on top of the plane as it flipped. We measured the logs, and got in touch with a logging scaler. His estimate was that the two logs weighed well in excess of 3000 pounds. That was submitted to the insurance company. It might have been easier to recover that plane had it not been tied down at all. Point is, there will come a time where NO tiedowns will save your airplane. George estimated the winds were over 100 knots that night, and they were measured at the nearest weather station at 92 with gusts.

That said, I was very impressed with the Fly Ties that I used last year at OSH. That was one hell of a wind storm, and the gust front came from the back first, then rapidly switched around to the front, equally hard. A J-3 tied down near me pulled its screw in anchors out, spun around and jumped on another plane. I was told after that peak gusts were 62 knots.

Again, PRACTICAL solutions are really pretty hard to come by. Nothing will work in every situation. Some solutions work better in a wider variety of situations. Compactness is critical to me, because I'm flying an airplane like a Cub.

But, there is not perfect all around solution that'll work everywhere, and is relatively easy to use. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I carry hull insurance on the plane.

MTV

Wow - thanks so much for all the replies so far! That's great!

I am looking for something I can dismantle and take with me.

That daisy-chain of wooden stakes is amazing - I had no idea the system was so much stronger set up that way. In the meantime a couple more steel pegs would probably help my current tie-down kit a lot. My current kit is just top quality ropes and a few steel pegs.

I am not familiar with the "Claw", the "Fly Ties", or the "Abe" solution. I'll do some Googling, but yes I agree - a system that pulls out with 500lbs may not hold down a plane for long in strong winds.

Thanks for posting those videos guys - I will watch them too.

More comments gratefully received!

I started searching some time ago thinking there had to be something like a duckbill anchor that could be removed fairly easily. This is what I have found and have been using.


The wire is attached to a tang that lines the anchor back up vertically and pulls it back up the hole left by the drive rod. The do work real well. I bought them from the snare shop dot com. They call them bull it point super stakes. These babies hold a lot of pull, I don't have any way of measuring that but I am impressed.
Mike

Easy Riser wrote:I started searching some time ago thinking there had to be something like a duckbill anchor that could be removed fairly easily. This is what I have found and have been using.


The wire is attached to a tang that lines the anchor back up vertically and pulls it back up the hole left by the drive rod. The do work real well. I bought them from the snare shop dot com. They call them bull it point super stakes. These babies hold a lot of pull, I don't have any way of measuring that but I am impressed.
Mike

Good find! Here's a direct link to the page: http://www.snareshop.com/prodinfo.asp?n ... B%20-%20DZ

Have you tried pulling these back out of the ground, and if so, how difficult was it? Duck bills do hold a lot of pull in my experience....I've used them for years as full time outdoor tiedowns.

Thanks,

MTV

Barnstormer wrote:Abe's Tiedowns (the 5-kit) for non-permanent/temporary solutions, and Duckbill Earth Anchors for permanent ones.

http://www.abesaviation.com

I have to say - that while this is a great solution which has been well thought-out - it would only be possible to use this "spade" design in ideal conditions.

Most places I park have some rocky ground about, and I have little faith that I could drive those spades into the ground without damaging them.

So while they may hold on the best, I don't think they're what I am looking for.

Now the removable duck-bill idea is interesting. I wonder how hard they are to retrieve....

A removable duckbill with an amsteel line sounds interesting...

There's also these things. Seems better than plain old steel nails and three of them equalized with a bit of cord could be every bit as strong as flyties kit - and a lot lighter weight.



According to their facebook page, they load tested a large orange screw driven in at 45 degree angle at over 640lbs before pulling out. Like a flyties or claw, three of those per anchor (or more) would be hella-strong to hold a plane down.

Silly question, perhaps, but why are some folks concerned about recovering duckbill-style anchors? I'm fairly new to the backcountry gig, but duckbills are what I carry based on recommendations here and elsewhere. They're not expensive, so leaving them in the ground is mostly a non-issue for me. If they're so effective (which seems to be the case), why go with something that is less effective but maybe just a bit easier to retrieve?