Backcountry Pilot • ADS B - Pros & Cons

ADS B - Pros & Cons

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Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:09 am

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

For starters the FSDO doesn't have real time access to ADS-B data, they have to request the data from ATC just like regular radar data. Something either generated a automated alert or some other report set the ball in motion for the FAA to pull track data. On the center level a VFR target won't generate an alert with another VFR target. So possibly was the other aircraft was under VFR flight following with a 4096 Code an got a alert or more than likely the other guy made a call. Either way there was some factor that got the attention of the FSDO, as there would be no way for them to know with out some notification.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:57 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read the ADS-B regs pretty much everywhere you are required to have at least a mode-C transponder you will be required to have ADS-B out.

That being the case, if you don't want to be followed just turn off the transponder. Granted this makes the airspace somewhat less safe.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:18 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

TomD wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read the ADS-B regs pretty much everywhere you are required to have at least a mode-C transponder you will be required to have ADS-B out.

That being the case, if you don't want to be followed just turn off the transponder. Granted this makes the airspace somewhat less safe.



You need to be more specific. Transponder does not necc equal ADSB. There are 2 freqs. 978Mhz and 1090Mhz( The same as your current transponder). However for ADSB for 1090 it is specifically 1090ES (extended squitter) or the mode S that has been around for a while for some military birds. Per the FAR's, if you have a transponder, it should be turned on.

But yes, essentially if you are in airspace that is radar controlled now, you will be required to have some form of ADSB come 2020.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Regarding turning a transponder off:

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.


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Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:23 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

TomD wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read the ADS-B regs pretty much everywhere you are required to have at least a mode-C transponder you will be required to have ADS-B out.

That being the case, if you don't want to be followed just turn off the transponder. Granted this makes the airspace somewhat less safe.


Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:09 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Bonanza Man wrote:
TomD wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but as I read the ADS-B regs pretty much everywhere you are required to have at least a mode-C transponder you will be required to have ADS-B out.

That being the case, if you don't want to be followed just turn off the transponder. Granted this makes the airspace somewhat less safe.


Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.



I will say even in anonymous mode, mine will still pop on the system with my info. I believe what happens is my Transmonspe will miss a few squawks from the transponder and assume it isn't working. It will then tell ATC all of my info and that some part of the system has failed for a small amount of time...I then get a call from the FAA. This is purely speculation, but every time the FAA's Mr. William Adams has called to tell me my system has failed it was on a very short flight when I was squawking 1200 only. Unfortunately, it hasn't been anonymous at all times.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:31 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

978's anonymous mode is designed to keep you anonymous from the casual observer. It is specifically designed to still tell the FAA who you are.

From FreeFlight's Web site:

How does 978 UAT do it differently? The 978 UAT rules allow for an "anonymous" operating mode for aircraft flying VFR, and most avionics manufactures' equipment support this (but it's advised to check first - it is the manufacturer option to decides if they want to include this feature). If the option is available, it can be enabled during the installation. When the aircraft is on the ground and during the first few minutes of flight (so ATC can establish a track), the 978 UAT sends out the ICAO code and Flight ID. After that, as long as the squawk is set to "1200," the 978 UAT automatically scrambles those two fields using a random encoding scheme. ATC is able to maintain track, so you are safely "in the system" but other aircraft and observers on the ground with receivers (like "Flight Radar24") loses all of the identifying info - with no way to correlate it back to a specific aircraft or aircraft owner.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.


I was not aware that one had to have their transponder on outside of required airspace. I am aware of the requirements for Class B etc. but not in the boonies.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

TomD wrote:
Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.


I was not aware that one had to have their transponder on outside of required airspace. I am aware of the requirements for Class B etc. but not in the boonies.


I could be wrong, but I think in class G you can shut it down.
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Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

TomD wrote:
Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.


I was not aware that one had to have their transponder on outside of required airspace. I am aware of the requirements for Class B etc. but not in the boonies.

This was a topic at an FAA Safety Briefing I attended not too long ago. If you have a transponder installed that meets the spec, you're required to have it turned ON. If you turn it OFF in flight, you can receive a violation from the FAA (but probably won't, unless you're doing something else that attracts their attention). If you turn it off in an attempt to 'hide' bad dehavior, they can (and likely will) hit you with everything, including 'careless and reckless' clause.
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Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:55 am

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

TomD wrote:
Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.


I was not aware that one had to have their transponder on outside of required airspace. I am aware of the requirements for Class B etc. but not in the boonies.



The FAR states in "controlled airspace", which class E is technically controlled. CamTom is right that class G is the only one where it can be shut off.

BKK- Good find on the ADSB info
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Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:44 am

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Timberwolf wrote:
TomD wrote:
Not legal, if you have it it has to be on. If you want to be anonymous then go the 978 route that has an anonymous mode.


I was not aware that one had to have their transponder on outside of required airspace. I am aware of the requirements for Class B etc. but not in the boonies.



The FAR states in "controlled airspace", which class E is technically controlled. CamTom is right that class G is the only one where it can be shut off.

BKK- Good find on the ADSB info


Yes, the rule states that, if a transponder is installed, it must be "on" anytime the plane is in controlled airspace. Golf airspace is generally the only uncontrolled airspace most of us are likely to operate in.

Previously, if you were in E airspace and turned off your transponder, nobody would likely notice if you're outside radar coverage. But with the advent of ADS-B Ground Based Transmitters, coverage is much more widespread, and your built in snitch will inform the FAA that the box quit working.....for whatever reason.

MTV
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Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:53 am

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

This is miserable news.

I knew that the govenment was going to use this against us, but I did not think it started already. Likely it will get exponentially worse.

I thought I'd be OK, for a while at any rate, because I live and operate in the rural PNW and I can easily avoid class B and C airspace. I have no intentions of submitting to the ADSB edict.

I usually (in therory of course....) operate with my transponder off but with this reminder information will have to assess class E.

Seems like our world is getting smaller and smaller. This of course I'm sure is the intention. To squeeze us off the map.
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Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

mtv wrote:It is worthy of note that a significant percentage of midairs occur within class D and C airspace.....i.e.: under positive ATC control.

MTV


Well over 60%.
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Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

FWIW, there's very little G space left in the country. For all practical purposes, that means that if you fly, you're in controlled airspace. If you have a transponder installed, it must be on. The reg is actually pretty clear, unlike many FARs:

§91.215(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.


If it's "off" because you forgot to turn it on, or because you're just paranoid and don't want Uncle tracking you, then if the FAA comes calling, they're not likely to be too hard on you--simple hand-slap perhaps. But if you turn it "off" because you're trying to mask some other misdeed, you can count on the proverbial book being thrown. So the best advice is to turn the switch to Mode C (ALT) and leave it there.

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Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:49 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Cary wrote:FWIW, there's very little G space left in the country. For all practical purposes, that means that if you fly, you're in controlled airspace.


I have to disagree on a technicality here. There's TONS of class G in this country. However, there's not much of it above 1,200', which is what I'm pretty sure you meant to say! :D
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Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

CamTom12 wrote:
Cary wrote:FWIW, there's very little G space left in the country. For all practical purposes, that means that if you fly, you're in controlled airspace.


I have to disagree on a technicality here. There's TONS of class G in this country. However, there's not much of it above 1,200', which is what I'm pretty sure you meant to say! :D


And some of us spend a significant part of their flight time in Golf airspace

I spent virtually the entire trip to and from OSH the last two years without entering controlled airspace. You can actually see stuff down there, by the way. And I never did like nose bleeds.

MTV
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Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:25 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

And in Class E only above 10,000 feet is ADS-B required, and even then one gets a 2,500 foot waiver in mountains.


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Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

So if I had a transponder, but did not maintain it in accordance with the regulation would I have to turn it on???

This all started with the capstone project in AK trying to keep the bush pilots alive. For them it has been a great system not perfect but a lot better than the old days. The big problem is once they found out it worked they should have made it space based not ground based. I am sure funding was an issue and FAA just had a bone they would not let go of. Now it is just a mess and will stay that way until somebody decides to clean it all up. It may just go away one day to be replaced by a space based system, Cheaper in the long run for all except you will need more tin foil because than they will truly see all.
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Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:29 am

Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

DENNY wrote:So if I had a transponder, but did not maintain it in accordance with the regulation would I have to turn it on???

This all started with the capstone project in AK trying to keep the bush pilots alive. For them it has been a great system not perfect but a lot better than the old days. The big problem is once they found out it worked they should have made it space based not ground based. I am sure funding was an issue and FAA just had a bone they would not let go of. Now it is just a mess and will stay that way until somebody decides to clean it all up. It may just go away one day to be replaced by a space based system, Cheaper in the long run for all except you will need more tin foil because than they will truly see all.
DENNNY


Denny,

Read the reg. If a transponder is installed it must be operational and "ON" . Further, To be "airworthy", all installed equipment must be functional OR removed or placarded as inop. and logged. If you're going to have an inoperable transponder, I'd remove it from the tray and placard it, then have a mechanic log it, to be overly cautious.

But, a much better idea would be to get the thing fixed, and turn it on. Anchorage airspace is some of the busiest there is at times.

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