Backcountry Pilot • ADS B - Pros & Cons

ADS B - Pros & Cons

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

DENNY wrote:The big problem is once they found out it worked they should have made it space based not ground based.


That would be an amazingly difficult technological problem to solve. Would make the entire thing cost prohibitive in a heartbeat.

Think about how much Spot and InReach cost for 1/3000th* the data, or how much XM costs just for weather data riding along on a one-way network that pays for itself with other services, and that's the tip of the iceberg.

[*] assumes ten minute track updates and 10 planes in the area.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

rw2 wrote:
DENNY wrote:The big problem is once they found out it worked they should have made it space based not ground based.


That would be an amazingly difficult technological problem to solve. Would make the entire thing cost prohibitive in a heartbeat.

Think about how much Spot and InReach cost for 1/3000th* the data, or how much XM costs just for weather data riding along on a one-way network that pays for itself with other services, and that's the tip of the iceberg.

[*] assumes ten minute track updates and 10 planes in the area.


True, but you're not considering that those companies all have to make a profit.....the federal government doesn't.

It also doesn't take into account the massive expense the FAA has undertaken of installing and maintaining hundreds of GBTs (ground based transmitters) in place of satellites, or the fact that ADS-B services are severely limited by the use of GBTs as opposed to satellites.

Frankly, the FAA designed this system almost exclusively for jets, not for GA airplanes. Its utility for GA aircraft is severely limited in many ways. But, we're all paying for it.

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

mtv wrote:True, but you're not considering that those companies all have to make a profit.....the federal government doesn't.


Well, of the two messaging platforms, both of have gone bankrupt and XM/Sirius combined because they couldn't make a profit separately, so I guess the profits are slim.

In any case, what's the point of having the feds spent more money on a space based system when a ground based one will do the job for less money? That's where this topic got started. Space is hard and expensive. Only applications that demand it should be there.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

DENNY wrote:... It may just go away one day to be replaced by a space based system, Cheaper in the long run for all except you will need more tin foil because than they will truly see all.


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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

rw2 wrote:
mtv wrote:True, but you're not considering that those companies all have to make a profit.....the federal government doesn't.


Well, of the two messaging platforms, both of have gone bankrupt and XM/Sirius combined because they couldn't make a profit separately, so I guess the profits are slim.

In any case, what's the point of having the feds spent more money on a space based system when a ground based one will do the job for less money? That's where this topic got started. Space is hard and expensive. Only applications that demand it should be there.

Canada has been considering going the satellite based route. To me it makes more sense. When flying in the mountains it would actually work down low and I wouldn't have to climb to 10 or 14000 feet for it to actually work. The cost of setting and maintaining up multiple ground stations can't be that cheap either.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

mtv wrote:
Frankly, the FAA designed this system almost exclusively for jets, not for GA airplanes. Its utility for GA aircraft is severely limited in many ways. But, we're all paying for it.

MTV


I don't think this is a fair characterization at all. There is tremendous value in accurate position reporting, real time traffic and weather, even in the backcountry vfr aviation with air to air. It would have been even more valuable if everyone would equip. And I argue that if we relaxed the certification restrictions - people could both make a profit and allow home-cooked open source solutions which are every bit as technologically advanced (more so given security concerns) then more people would equip.

Trig will soon be shipping their standalone TN72 GPS receiver that is TSO and WAAS - for $600 albeit to the wrong TSO (199 versus 145c). This is so you can use ADSB in non-required areas - like for gliders. That tells you that plenty of people want to equip - they just want it to be cheap. The cost to equip for ADSB-in is now in the $3k range installed using your existing mode c xponder, and 4k gets you a brand new mode s, and you can get a stratux ADSB-in solution now for under $100. It will come down further as 2020 gets closer. Plus there is the $500 rebate until supplies of tax dollars last.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

"Tremendous value" is a monumental understatement of the utility of real time accurate traffic information. I have lost two friends in midairs, am good friends with others who lost friends at the HSF and was at the scene of another midair where I tried unsuccessfully for an hour and a half to resuscitate an 18 month old child. After that last event I installed a Free Flight ADS-B in/out system for less than the cost of a pair of 29" ABW's. I fly almost every day and feel it is perhaps my most important piece of gear I have, and doubt I would have kept flying after that tragedy except for having been able to something meaningful and effective in response. It is astonishingly accurate and solid. The few gaps there are in coverage, and especially low and in canyons become a complete nonissue when all aircraft are equipped and transmitting and receiving air to air. It is almost certain that if the two planes involved the the crash i witnessed were equipped, that child would still be with us. I understand if you are El Chapo Guzman and you livelihood depends on stealth, but wouldn't most of us really rather that kid was still alive?
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

In some areas traffic information may be useful, but you yourself identified the problem there: ADS-B isn't required universally, and in fact, it won't be required in most of the airspace where general aviation aircraft operate.

And, having used ADS-B regularly for several years in busy airspace, I'm still not convinced it's significantly better than looking out the window....but maybe.

Midairs are indeed terrible events, no doubt. And we should do what we can to reduce their incidence. That said, your odds of being involved in a midair are incredibly low.

But, when I'm sitting at a strip in a canyon somewhere with mountains obscured partially, I want weather information, and ADS-B won't provide it because it's ground based, not satellite based. In fact, I could be sitting at an airport right near a GBT and still not be able to get weather. At least there I MAY have the ability to use a cell phone for wealthier via AFSS. That didn't work in eastern MT this summer, though.
XM satellite weather is there in both places, as well as in flight, and the resolution is much better.

And, weather was one of the big promises when Capstone was sold in Alaska originally......in totally flat country with pretty ugly weather.

And, by the way, there have been midairs between Capstone equipped aircraft.

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Soyanarchisto wrote:

.
Trig will soon be shipping their standalone TN72 GPS receiver that is TSO and WAAS - for $600 albeit to the wrong TSO (199 versus 145c).
Price according to the link below is $ 389 for the GPS receiver and $ 345 for the TA70 antenna. Announced today Dec. 2, 2016.
LINK: https://gallery.mailchimp.com/52e544aaf3e34b416fb10e2f7/files/Trig_announces_new_ADS_B_position_source_TN72_GPS_Receiver_December_2016.pdf

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Cary wrote:Of course, if you're doing everything legally but still get unjustifiably ratted on by the 1 percenters, that ADS-B Out might just save your bacon!

Cary


Good point. Do you recall that glider pilot in 2012 who was busted by the local sheriff for allegedly flying 100' above the dome of a nuclear reactor that wasn't marked on the sectional? Turns out the pilot had a competition flight logger in his aircraft that showed he was never closer than 1000' to the reactor vertically, and was circling away looking for lift. AOPA did an article or two about the "Secret No Fly Zone" soon after. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/january/10/secret-no-fly-zone. You are right. Having a real time official record would be a no-brainer rebuttal to anyone who complains about being too low, or for busting a TFR for that matter.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

MTV wrote:Frankly, the FAA designed this system almost exclusively for jets, not for GA airplanes. Its utility for GA aircraft is severely limited in many ways. But, we're all paying for it.
I think this is a fair summary. There is a tremendous utility for everyone that flies to use these services. However, the requirements for cadence and accuracy for the GPS sources are really only useful for:

a) Fast aircraft, where slower cadence and position predictions/reporting and/or 28 ft accuracy vs 8 ft accuracy are more important, and

b) Precision approaches, where the position and reporting solution has to be equal to or better than currently available primary radar and ILS vertical guidance in the terminal phase of the approach.

Unfortunately, the same high precision and high cadence (rep rate) GPS required for small, slow, low, vfr bug smashers is useless since the potential positional errors are absolutely smaller than for faster aircraft, and the additional precision provided by the bug smasher is of no use to the other aircraft in the service area because the errors simply are not as large as with faster aircraft. In other words, the error for a slow aircraft with precision position information is tiny compared to the error for faster aircraft.

Allowing low precision GPS for VFR-only, slower (say <200 kts, but could perhaps even be some other larger number) aircraft would immediately decrease the costs of compliance by allowing older TSO position sources and even less expensive modern sources to be used (as was the original plan, actually). In each and every source document I've read discussing the origins of required cadence and precision for the ADS-B system, high speed errors typical for commercial airliners and precision approach errors were explicitly used to demonstrate lower limits for performance requirements. These calculations look very different for slower aircraft without a need for IFR navigation.

It seems pretty silly to me to require the same performance for position reporting for a C-140 and a Citation X. I don't think a pilot will change their course of action for a traffic conflict if the other target was known to within 28 feet instead of 8 feet of an antenna location.

However, I've heard more than one pilot express dismay (with a straight face) the FAA was not making everyone install GNSS carrier phase equipment to provide centimeter positioning "like surveyors use every day". Because more expensive is always better for some of them, and because they believe centimeters vs 28 feet somehow translate into countless saved lives. I believe that thinking is bunk. I believe having more installations flying through lower costs in more aircraft would have an impact on flight safety.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

So how about this. When squawking 1200 ADS-B does not carry any aircraft identification information. I'd consider outfitting my 185 if this was the case. Why would the FAA object to this?
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

If you have a mode S unit, your ID is broadcast but I do not know if the ID is actually presented to the controller.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Barnstormer wrote:So how about this. When squawking 1200 ADS-B does not carry any aircraft identification information. I'd consider outfitting my 185 if this was the case. Why would the FAA object to this?


Because they want "data". Whatever that is......and we won't know till they start using it.

The FAA has massively screwed up EVERY technology program they've ever been involved with, much to the dismay of hard working air traffic controllers, AFSS types, etc.

Don't look for logic here....

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Barnstormer wrote:So how about this. When squawking 1200 ADS-B does not carry any aircraft identification information. I'd consider outfitting my 185 if this was the case. Why would the FAA object to this?


That one change would do a lot to change my perspective. The fact that even 978 anonymous mode is not anonymous to the feds seems to indicate that they are more interested in knowing the identity of every target (for whatever reason) than providing a tool to improve safety.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

A consideration for the implementation of ADSB may have been as a result of 9/11. It may be a means by which to separate us from a "renegade". But like it has already been pointed out, once its out there, the info can be misused by numerous parties. This will increase our vulnerabilities to intense scrutiny.

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

mtv wrote:
Barnstormer wrote:So how about this. When squawking 1200 ADS-B does not carry any aircraft identification information. I'd consider outfitting my 185 if this was the case. Why would the FAA object to this?


Because they want "data". Whatever that is......and we won't know till they start using it.

The FAA has massively screwed up EVERY technology program they've ever been involved with, much to the dismay of hard working air traffic controllers, AFSS types, etc.

Don't look for logic here....

MTV



That.

Anyone who is a student of history can see where this goes, and it's not good for anyone other then government and people with ill intent.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Okay so this afternoon near Rosamond California Garmin's GDL 39 picks up an ADS-D out target climbing at me from behind. This is my worst fear, some dumb dumb coming at me on my six. He is climbing at 175mph and aimed right at me. It is his ADS-B out the triggers the display on Garmin Pilot. I'm at 9,500 feet and continue on. Then he is ten miles directly behind me. Then five miles and still climbing right at me, his climb and path unwavering. Then a mile. He continues to close on me. At a half mile it's clear he will hit me so I bank into a 360 degree turn to the right. I watch Pilot and right where I just was he passes at my exact altitude. Never once did he turn to avoid me or change his climb. By the time I completed my 360 all I could see was the sun shining off his tail.

So here I'll admit ADS-B quite likely saved my life. But, this idiot had ADS-B out and still nearly killed us both, so don't think for one minute that it will make hack pilots into good ones, or keep them from taking you out.

I was so happy when I got out of the mountains and could drop down on the deck where it's safe.

And as I was approaching Santa Fe, in contact with the tower and in their airspace, a plane heads directly at me and goes over the top of me no more then 500 feet above. No ADS-B target as he did not have his transponder on. Right after he passes over me tower calls and warns me they are seeing an intermittent target heading right at me. And he says he has another intermittent target approaching me from my 3:00 (I never do find it). He tells me he's not sure if they are even real targets. I confirm with him that the one was and passed right over the top of me. Remember, this happened inside Santa Fe's airspace. Now neither plane is required to have a transponder to be in Santa Fe's airspace, but they are required to contact the tower, which obviously they had not.

Be careful out there.
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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

Phil, regarding the first target you noted, bear in mind that the ADS-B reg requires "out" but not "in", so it's entirely possible that plane was equipped with the minimum equipment.

Or the pilot was texting his buddies about how cool his new airplane is......

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Re: ADS B - Pros & Cons

mtv wrote:Phil, regarding the first target you noted, bear in mind that the ADS-B reg requires "out" but not "in", so it's entirely possible that plane was equipped with the minimum equipment.

Or the pilot was texting his buddies about how cool his new airplane is......

MTV


I figure he was texting. Beautiful clear day, I have tail and wing strobes that are like solar flares even in bright sunshine so there is no way his eyes were out of the cockpit.

The plane at Santa Fe didn't concern me as I could see it, but I was amazed that two aircraft were inside its airspace and hadn't communicated with the tower. Guess I shouldn't be surprised at anything should I.


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