Aryana wrote:

jliltd wrote:
2). Anonymous Mode is accomplished through an onboard device randomization of ICAO code and cannot ever be decoded to a unique aircraft indentifier on the outside. It is impossible by the very method of operation. That's why it drives the FAA control freaks nuts. Prove otherwise with documentation.

I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing.

I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

Same here. And when I spoke to an FAA person who monitors all this stuff, he verified that anonymous mode only hides your tail number from the “public”, whoever that is. So, during my validation flight, I had anonymous mode selected (from the git go) and I still showed up in FAA system. Later flights...same same. In fact, said FAA guy sent me screen shots of my track, which they use to validate ADS-B compliance. With anonymous mode activated, my tail number still showed up.

So, I have no idea how that works (nor do I care), but I guarantee that anonymous mode does not hide your ID from the FAA.

I had to upload a new firmware to my SkyBeacon to correct numerous errors. If errors persist, the FAA can simply “ban” your ADS-B signal from their system. In that case, you are transmitting, but the FAA ignores your signal, and you aren’t “compliant” with the upcoming ADS-B mandate. A friend nearby has been threatened with that by a different FAA office. And, he’s based inside Charley airspace.

Frankly, the ADS-B system in the US was poorly designed, and is seriously broken when it comes to those of us who rarely operate above 6000 agl. Will they ever figure it out? I doubt it.....easier to just turn us off in their system.

This was a program intended to eliminate radar, and was aimed at users of radar services, ie: airliners. Ironically, many airliners are not equipped and won’t be at compliance date.

While us bug smashers are pissing away gas money on what more and more looks like a fools errand.

Rant over.

MTV

StuBob wrote:Are you sure you did it right? AIUI, you have to have the “anonymous” switch on and the transponder set to 1200 before you power up the unit. That it, you can’t start it all up, then flip the anon switch.

Or so I read on the Internet; it must be true!

Yep, the anonymous switch was on and transponder set to 1200.

I failed the performance report because the anonymous mode was on...so even they confirmed it was working.

I've also had a friend tell me that although the tail number is hidden from the public, the hex code is not and that can be used to identify you in lieu of the scrambled tail number.

I haven't verified that one but I find it quite plausible.

Bottom line, anonymous mode is not very anonymous.

mtv wrote:

Aryana wrote:

jliltd wrote:
2). Anonymous Mode is accomplished through an onboard device randomization of ICAO code and cannot ever be decoded to a unique aircraft indentifier on the outside. It is impossible by the very method of operation. That's why it drives the FAA control freaks nuts. Prove otherwise with documentation.

I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing.

I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

Same here. And when I spoke to an FAA person who monitors all this stuff, he verified that anonymous mode only hides your tail number from the “public”, whoever that is. So, during my validation flight, I had anonymous mode selected (from the git go) and I still showed up in FAA system. Later flights...same same. In fact, said FAA guy sent me screen shots of my track, which they use to validate ADS-B compliance. With anonymous mode activated, my tail number still showed up.

So, I have no idea how that works (nor do I care), but I guarantee that anonymous mode does not hide your ID from the FAA.

I had to upload a new firmware to my SkyBeacon to correct numerous errors. If errors persist, the FAA can simply “ban” your ADS-B signal from their system. In that case, you are transmitting, but the FAA ignores your signal, and you aren’t “compliant” with the upcoming ADS-B mandate. A friend nearby has been threatened with that by a different FAA office. And, he’s based inside Charley airspace.

Frankly, the ADS-B system in the US was poorly designed, and is seriously broken when it comes to those of us who rarely operate above 6000 agl. Will they ever figure it out? I doubt it.....easier to just turn us off in their system.

This was a program intended to eliminate radar, and was aimed at users of radar services, ie: airliners. Ironically, many airliners are not equipped and won’t be at compliance date.

While us bug smashers are pissing away gas money on what more and more looks like a fools errand.

Rant over.

MTV

Good rant!!! [emoji1360]

Aryana wrote:….I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing. I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

FWIW I did the rebate test flight plus couple more afterwards, all of which came out fine.
I then used the Skybeacon app to select anonymous mode.
Got a performance report for the next flight:
"Your performance report request for tail number xxx on 10/15/2019 failed to generate a result."
Kinda leads me to believe that the FAA couldn't tell who I was.
Also, when "they" say you can't be in anonymous mode when you're squawking an assigned txp code leads me to believe the same thing.

I'm not a techy, but jliltd's explanation of how the anonymous mode works sounds reasonable,
and also leads me to believe that anonymous works with big brother as well as the private sector.

hotrod180 wrote:

Aryana wrote:….I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing. I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

FWIW I did the rebate test flight plus couple more afterwards, all of which came out fine.
I then used the Skybeacon app to select anonymous mode.
Got a performance report for the next flight:
"Your performance report request for tail number xxx on 10/15/2019 failed to generate a result."
Kinda leads me to believe that the FAA couldn't tell who I was.
Also, when "they" say you can't be in anonymous mode when you're squawking an assigned txp code leads me to believe the same thing.

I'm not a techy, but jliltd's explanation of how the anonymous mode works sounds reasonable,
and also leads me to believe that anonymous works with big brother as well as the private sector.

Believe what you like. But my unit was in anon. Mode for a number of flights, and the FAA gent in DC sent me performance reports for all those flights, and my tail number was clearly featured. I specifically asked him on the phone how that could be, with the unit in anon. Mode.

His response was a definitive “Anonymous mode does NOT block the FAAs system from reading your tail number.”

That’s from the horse’s mouth, so take it what it’s worth.

But, in any case, the reports he sent had my number on them. And yes, he concurred that the unit was in fact in Anonymous mode.

MTV

mtv wrote:Believe what you like. But my unit was in anon. Mode for a number of flights, and the FAA gent in DC sent me performance reports for all those flights, and my tail number was clearly featured. I specifically asked him on the phone how that could be, with the unit in anon. Mode.

His response was a definitive “Anonymous mode does NOT block the FAAs system from reading your tail number.”

I suspect the confusion here is that 978 has a "real" anon mode and 1090 does not. Though the FAA is considering rolling codes in 1090 to create a real anon mode for 1090 as well.

Aryana wrote:

jliltd wrote:
2). Anonymous Mode is accomplished through an onboard device randomization of ICAO code and cannot ever be decoded to a unique aircraft identifier on the outside. It is impossible by the very method of operation. That's why it drives the FAA control freaks nuts. Prove otherwise with documentation.

I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing.

I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

There is anonymous mode, kinda.... It's hard to explain:

In order to use anonymous mode, you must be using 978UAT. That piggybacks onto your 1090mhz transponder. So your 1090 sends out your squawk code, and the 978UAT box sends out your position information.

In order to go into anonymous mode, your 978UAT box needs to know for sure you are squawking 1200, but it doesn't know that until your transponder gets hit and see's it report 1200. That usually happens after the 978UAT box gets a GPS signal, which as soon as it does, it must send your position according to the FAA.

So your system will probably send out one or two position reports on 978mhz before your transponder warms up, gets hit, then it switches to anonymous mode.

From the FAA side, it's fairly easy to see that an airplane at this location going this direction at this speed suddenly stopped sending it's ICAO code and a new anonymous airplane is actually the same airplane.

The only way around this is to run the echoUAT box. That box can talk to your transponder over a serial interface and can verify you are squawking 1200 before the GPS lock. In that case, you can always be anonymous and still comply with the rules.

Clear as mud?

mtv wrote:So, I have no idea how that works (nor do I care), but I guarantee that anonymous mode does not hide your ID from the FAA.

I guarantee you that anonymous mode does hide your ID, it's just that the current systems on the market start out in non-anonymous mode for a minute or so before going to anonymous mode, and it's easy for the FAA to relate the two together.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/s ... ?p=1330541

The reason I can guarantee this is because the UAT data is not encrypted, and a simple software radio and decoder can show you the actual bits leaving the ads-b box. It's easy to debug this stuff and see what is actually going on at a packet level, and the packets don't lie. If your ICAO code is not being broadcast, the FAA can't see it.

See my note above which describes how to actually get anonymous mode.

rw2 wrote:I suspect the confusion here is that 978 has a "real" anon mode and 1090 does not. Though the FAA is considering rolling codes in 1090 to create a real anon mode for 1090 as well.

Correct, there is no anonymous mode in 1090 currently, and if you are using skybeacon or gdl-82 you still don't get anonymous mode at start up, and it's easy to see the actual tail number of an airplane in anonymous mode if it can be traced back to the point where it wasn't anonymous.

akschu wrote:

rw2 wrote:I suspect the confusion here is that 978 has a "real" anon mode and 1090 does not. Though the FAA is considering rolling codes in 1090 to create a real anon mode for 1090 as well.

Correct, there is no anonymous mode in 1090 currently, and if you are using skybeacon or gdl-82 you still don't get anonymous mode at start up, and it's easy to see the actual tail number of an airplane in anonymous mode if it can be traced back to the point where it wasn't anonymous.

Not doubting that you're correct. However, on at least one of the flights which I requested a report on, the unit was in anonymous mode, and I departed from an airport that is well outside ADS-B coverage.....like well outside. So, my initial pings from the unit occurred well outside coverage, as in miles away from the nearest coverage, behind a mountain, and low level.

But, the FAA had that flight and my tail number.

As I said, I don't know what's happening, but you may be right.

MTV

That VansAirforce thread I linked to above dives into the actual protocols and how it works. It's a very interesting read.

Speaking of VansAirforce... here is another thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/s ... p?t=175936

It says:

Hello GDL 82 Users,

As some of you are aware, the initial GDL 82 software could transmit a couple of "uncloaked" ADS-B Out messages with real aircraft ICAO address and Flight ID on power-up, even with the transponder code set to 1200 and the Anonymous switch active.

Many of you requested this be improved, and we are happy to report that this work is complete. The new V2.01 software includes improvements to make sure that a system starting up with the Anonymous mode switch active and a transponder code of 1200 will enter Anonymous before transmitting any messages thus safeguarding the true ICAO address and Flight ID of the aircraft.

We also created a special non-certified aircraft service bulletin with instructions on using the same PC installation tool and USB interface you originally used to install/configure the system to install the new software.

The service bulletin and V2.01 software can be downloaded from the GDL 82 Software Download page. There is one download for the software plus service bulletin, and a second for the PC tool if you need it. The PC tool is unchanged.

Let us know if you have questions.

Thanks,
Steve
__________________
Garmin G3X Support
[email protected]
1-866-854-8433 - 7 to 7 Central Time M to F

So you with the GDL-82 might want to bust out a PC and update!

schu

As I said before, this system is so screwed up, it could only have been created by an FAA Committee.

MTV

hotrod180 wrote:

Aryana wrote:….I did my test flight for my rebate in anonymous mode and the FAA still knew exactly who I was when I ordered the performance report 5 mins after landing. I don't think there's anything anonymous about it to the FAA.

FWIW I did the rebate test flight plus couple more afterwards, all of which came out fine.
I then used the Skybeacon app to select anonymous mode.
Got a performance report for the next flight:
"Your performance report request for tail number xxx on 10/15/2019 failed to generate a result."
Kinda leads me to believe that the FAA couldn't tell who I was.
Also, when "they" say you can't be in anonymous mode when you're squawking an assigned txp code leads me to believe the same thing.

I'm not a techy, but jliltd's explanation of how the anonymous mode works sounds reasonable,
and also leads me to believe that anonymous works with big brother as well as the private sector.

I'm an electrical and computer engineer, and I can tell you that I have the documentation to prove that they had the entire performance report and flight trail, but failed me because I was on anonymous mode.

I really have nothing to gain by deceiving anyone, but I've already verified this with multiple aircraft installations of ADSB. Same result every time.

Yep, while in “anonymous mode” your ICAO code is not supposed to be transmitted as part of the ADS-B packet. You get a pseudo-random number instead...

BUT if you have a Mode S transponder, the transponder itself still sends out the ICAO code as past of its broadcast transmission, regardless of what the ADS-B packet may or may not contain. Mode-C transponders apparently do not broadcast their ICAO codes, but Mode-S transponders apparently do.

akschu wrote:...if you are using skybeacon or gdl-82 you still don't get anonymous mode at start up, and it's easy to see the actual tail number of an airplane in anonymous mode if it can be traced back to the point where it wasn't anonymous.

The Skybeacon will not go into anonymous mode unless it sees that you are squawking 1200. Generally this will not be until your txp is interrogated by radar. You can jump start this by turning your txp switch to "test". I always thought that this only tested the reply light but apparently it also sends out a ping. After a tip from a friend, I tried it in the hangar-- txp & tailbeacon on, programming app open, no squawk shown-- turned switch to test and bingo! 1200 squawk shown on the app.

A1Skinner wrote:

TradeCraft wrote:

Zzz wrote:Is it against the regs to just put a switch on the ADS-B encoder, or transponder, whatever? Need real stealth mode and you're not in Class C or B airspace? Flip.

Yeah, you'd lose the traffic avoidance features. But it seems mutually exclusive with the situations where you'd desire stealth.

Yep.

91.225
(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk to specifically annoy:
Zane
Hammer

Same as a Mode C transponder. If its installed its gotta be on.

I always wondered where this reg came from. It seemed likely that there was some accident history, like the Hale Boggs accident leading to the ELT reg. Today, while surfing the NTSB, I randomly came across this document from 1971. https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/RecLetters/A72_27_28.pdf. Seems like this was likely the origin of the "must be on if it's installed" reg.

A1Skinner wrote:

TradeCraft wrote:

Zzz wrote:Is it against the regs to just put a switch on the ADS-B encoder, or transponder, whatever? Need real stealth mode and you're not in Class C or B airspace? Flip.

Yeah, you'd lose the traffic avoidance features. But it seems mutually exclusive with the situations where you'd desire stealth.

Yep.

91.225
(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk to specifically annoy:
Zane
Hammer

Same as a Mode C transponder. If its installed its gotta be on.

No, ADS-B is NOT the same as the transponder rule. Read the respective rules!

The transponder rule says the transponder, I’d installed must be ON at all times when operating in controlled airspace. The ADS-B rule doesn’t exempt the uncontrolled airspace. And that’s where a lot of the problems with this stuff is happening: in Class G airspace.

MTV

If ADSB is installed, it must be on.

mtv wrote:

A1Skinner wrote:

TradeCraft wrote:

Zzz wrote:Is it against the regs to just put a switch on the ADS-B encoder, or transponder, whatever? Need real stealth mode and you're not in Class C or B airspace? Flip.

Yeah, you'd lose the traffic avoidance features. But it seems mutually exclusive with the situations where you'd desire stealth.

Yep.

91.225
(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk to specifically annoy:
Zane
Hammer

Same as a Mode C transponder. If its installed its gotta be on.

No, ADS-B is NOT the same as the transponder rule. Read the respective rules!

The transponder rule says the transponder, I’d installed must be ON at all times when operating in controlled airspace. The ADS-B rule doesn’t exempt the uncontrolled airspace. And that’s where a lot of the problems with this stuff is happening: in Class G airspace.

MTV

But if the ADS-B has to be on at all times, and it relies on a signal from the transponder, then doesn't that mean that by default the transponder has to be on at all times??

No, ADS-B is NOT the same as the transponder rule. Read the respective rules!

The transponder rule says the transponder, I’d installed must be ON at all times when operating in controlled airspace. The ADS-B rule doesn’t exempt the uncontrolled airspace. And that’s where a lot of the problems with this stuff is happening: in Class G airspace.

MTV[/quote]But if the ADS-B has to be on at all times, and it relies on a signal from the transponder, then doesn't that mean that by default the transponder has to be on at all times??[/quote]

Yes, of course. But the point I was making is that the ADS-B rule is NOT the same as the current transponder rule. With a transponder and no ADS-B, I can legally turn my transponder off when in G airspace. If I have ADS-B out installed, it must be on at all times in flight. There’s a lot of G airspace out there still, and ADS-B coverage in that airspace is very poor, because the US system is ground based.

MTV