Southern Boy wrote:Just to clarify one point...you don’t have to have ground fire experience to fly tankers, or air attack (as a pilot...to*be* an air attack you do need ground fire experience).

Would you expand on that a little bit? I was under the impression that even tanker pilots (large and SEATs) had to have on the ground wildland FF experience.

I am no expert. I have been flying SEATs for several years, though.....

Gov’t requirement is:
- prior mountain experience, or mountain flying course.
-100 hrs in “aerial dispersal of materials”...can be ag, or water, or they accept military experience dropping...uh...”stuff”.
-prior low-level experience (don’t recall the hours....I’ll try to research).
-completion of National Aerial Firefighting Academy
-instrument rating
-commercial ticket (obviously)
-pass checkride with gov’t “Office of Aircraft Services” check pilot
-25 hours “in type” (SEATs usually are 802s....maybe a few Dromadiers left, I haven’t seen any in years, but still listed in the documentation)
-for SEAT pilots, Air Attack pilots (not the Air Attack himself, who is usually not a pilot, just riding right seat) no fire line experience is needed.


In practicality....experience in ag is often (but not always....some of our guys have no ag experience) the entryway. getting picked up by an operator is the key....and, as is usual in aviation, developing contact, in person, with the “boss” is the best way. The operator has to sponsor you to go to NAFA, give you company training, etc. Turbine experience is usually needed, but we had a new guy this year who had no prior turbine experience. Heavy tailwheel time is definitely a plus. The ability to get along with people is key, as well....our company has “let go” pilots who were competent, but couldn’t work in an environment where they had to conform. One of the hardest things about flying fires is that it’s either “feast or famine”....you may “time out” (fly maximum allowed in a day...8 hours) for a few days in a row, or you may sit...(we haven’t turned a prop in 10 days).

some of the locations where you can be sent are wonderful, some are....shall we say.....”sparsely populated”. I’ve stayed in some interesting motels.....

Every day you pack your bag, load it in the plane...because you never know if you’ll return to that base that night or not. More than once, I’ve been dispatched to a revised destination, while in the air with a load. Spent the night, maybe longer....This year at 2 pm one day was dispatched two states away, and never returned to the base from whence I came...ended up sent to 3 different locations in 4 days. Now, I’ve been at my current location for 4 weeks....just no predictability.


I’ve gotten to fly some fun stuff....airshows, warbirds, ag, charter. never flew for the airlines. I like flying SEATs better than anything else I’ve ever done. The fire is never the same two drops in a row.

Your drop height is 65-90 feet. It’s almost always challenging terrain, you’re taking off at either MGTOW, or, at max calculated weight for the density altitude. Typically airports are 4500 plus feet MSL (not always), and the temps are typically summer highs 90s and 100s. DAs are often 9000 ft plus.

Radio work is important. You monitor several frequencies at once until you are near the fire, then “cone down” to one...the Air Attack frequency. AA (or lead plane) will direct where the drop is desired. Because of the multiple aircraft on the frequency (kind of like landing at Hartsfield) it’s imperative that communication be clear and concise.

We “hot load” most of the time, and occasionally “hot fuel” as well. I’ve never, ever had anyone push me to do something beyond my personal limits...that’s really nice, as I’ve worked some environments where that’s not the case.


(if you want to read more about what I’ve experienced, I have a blog “cafmustang.com”....ignore the stuff about things other than flying).

Another non expert (and probably far more so), but out of all the SEAT drivers I know, both current and otherwise, I can't think of one that ever worked fires on the ground. And for as much of a hermit as I can be, that's a pretty substantial list...

On the other hand, I know at lest three people who had their first introductions into turbines, in SEAT's and two who had Really low time in powered airplanes, but were phenomenal glider pilots. Both of those guys did their turbine checkouts in a two holeThrush with a -45 on the nose, only to end up in 802's in very short order.

I will say, and SB may confirm this? the SEAT world is a relatively younger flying arena, that has probably evolved more in a short time than most others. Not so much in the equipment, but in the way the industry is growing and controlled. So while someone at some point may have set a pre req for ground fire time, there's not one today, but may be tomorrow. I can remember 'phases' of Ag preference, then less Ag preference with more airline type preference (probably for a better grasp on radio work, and structured work background) followed by a quick return to a lean on ag guys. Tomorrow? who knows... Nearest I can tell, the only reason an ag guy would have a better shot at getting the seat is because if he's been around the block any, he's already as familiar with an ag aircraft as it gets.. But IMHO that part is really pretty minimal to the task at hand, which in itself is as far removed from flying ag as you can get...

Take care, Rob

Rob, I would say that’s a very accurate assessment of the “business”. It is relatively young (think 15 years or so...) and has evolved a lot during that time.


Of the SEAT pilots I personally know, most have past ag experience (I think helps with stick and rudder, and close to ground maneuvering); and most also have corporate experience (helps with the whole “3 dimensional picture from listening to the radio”).


Again, I love it....and it’s a great field for guys like me who are ...ahem.... a bit “older”. No night flying, limited to 8 hours a day flying, absolutely no more. Once you fly 36 hours in 6 days, a mandatory day off.


SB

The three SEAT guys I recently met were military, 2 A-10 and 1 Harrier pilots, all three close air ground support, says its very similar with the radio work we do. Some guys came from AG not because of the flying on crops, but because the experience in flying that type of aircraft. The 802 is the biggest of all SEATs and I think the only one the Government will allow on Federal Contracts.

I got hired by having the heavy max gross aircraft experience, heavy TW time(T-6) and with having AT 502 time, not because of the ag time, they didnt really care about that.

It's some of The best flying I've ever done, because of the teamwork and all involved from the ground to the AirAttack calling you in for the drop.

SEATs go way back to the 50's I believe the first one was a Stearman fitted with a tank used in California, then it progressed into using WWII Grumman TBM torpedo bombers.

Ten or so years ago, the requirement for flying SEAT for the feds included agricultural application experience. That's obviously changed, which is good, for the reasons noted above.

And yes, single engine air tankers have been around a long time, but the Forest Service and BLM decided many years ago that single engine airplanes were dangerous. There was a lot of years......the mid seventies till just a few years ago, that the feds would not allow single engine airplanes of ANY kind on fire duties. In 1986, an operator in Alaska bought a brand new Cessna Caravan, largely to lease to the Fire Service for para cargo, etc. They wouldn't issue a contract, so he put it on his scheduled air taxi. After a number of years, AFS (the BLM fire service in Alaska) finally authorized use of Caravans for certain fire missions.

The "blue ribbon committee" which was formed after the heavy air tanker accidents also decided that the Forest Service should no longer use their fleet of Barons and BLM shouldn't use their Sherpas on fires in the west because if one engine were to fail, neither airplane would be able to climb out of mountainous terrain on one engine...... And, the verbiage said that it was unreasonable to ask federal employees to fly in such machines due to the hazards involved.

Meanwhile, as a fed, i was flying all sorts of single engine airplanes in mountainous terrain. We kept that to ourselves, and didn't invite any "Blue Ribbon Committees" to examine our aviation program.

But, that committee also put the vast majority of the heavy air tankers out of business for fire fighting. The agencies were really struggling to find "new generation" air tankers. Several states started using repurposed ag planes, and the term SEAT was created....like it was a new concept. At first, the feds wanted nothing to do with them. The Fire Boss, built by Wipaire, was pretty much shunned in this country for several years. But, the European wildland fire community bought them right and left.

Eventually, even FS and BLM had to accept that these things were pretty efficient at the task.....even though they only have one engine. After all, the "Blue Ribbon Committee" was disbanded years ago......don't tell them about SEATs.....

MTV

Hope I am not asking a question that is too improper. But.....What kind of salary can you make per year doing the kind of flying you guys have described in this thread?

In the federal system, a journeyman pilot is a GS 12, many are GS 13. Those pay scales are available on line.

MTV

There seems to be some really great advice in these pages. Thanks to all of the experienced pilots who've posted here.

I've had several career paths in my life. I'm currently in my early 40's. Since graduating college, I've worked ski patrol, as a paramedic, a short stint in fire fighting and I'm now home building and sales. I've liked each career for different reasons. I'm really in the same boat as ASA and can't shake my dream of working a non-airline aviation job. Pre-hospital emergency medicine was my favorite job, due to the unpredictable, challenging nature, the teamwork and the opportunity to make a big difference in peoples lives. I can see those same things at play in aerial fire fighting.

I grew up around airplanes and always knew I'd be a pilot. In Arizona there's not a big population or need for float planes, but during college I had the opportunity to work around them. I worked as a guide in AK one summer at a fly-out lodge in King Salmon. We had three Beavers and I fell in love with float planes and low level flying.

This summer I was in Seattle and stayed near the Kenmore Lake Union base for several days with a front seat view of the arrivals and departures all day. Definitely rekindled my passion for float planes. This thread really got me thinking about the possibilities. Are there many jobs in the US flying SEATs or amphib SEATs?

This sure looks like it'd be a great way to spend summers:
https://youtu.be/Hsvf_ixKGO8

4Whitey wrote:This summer I was in Seattle and stayed near the Kenmore Lake Union base for several days with a front seat view of the arrivals and departures all day. Definitely rekindled my passion for float planes. This thread really got me thinking about the possibilities. Are there many jobs in the US flying SEATs or amphib SEATs?

This sure looks like it'd be a great way to spend summers:
https://youtu.be/Hsvf_ixKGO8

As others have noted, fire suppression is feast or famine....many days sitting alert, with no flying at all. Then, an 8 hour flying day, and in a Fire Boss, that could be nearly 8 hours of ten minute legs.....

Some CL 215s worked a fire near where I was working. They were working five minute legs from scoop to drop. Since those were two man crews, their duty day was 10 hours....and they were scooping and dropping for most of that, except for the 25 mile hop to and from the fire from their base, and occasional fuel transits. THAT gets to be hard work.

You'll notice that the aircraft in that video are working in Europe. At present, the vast majority of Fire Boss aircraft (and CL 215/415) aircraft operate in Europe. It's taken the US wildland fire community a long time to "accept" the functionality of these "scooper" aircraft.....but they are coming around. The State of Minnesota sold their CL 215 aircraft a while back and replaced them with several Fire Boss aircraft. So, there are and will be, more of these aircraft operating in North America as time goes by.

One of the issues with "scooper" aircraft in the US is that at least until recently, an aircraft that was being used to scoop water and dump on fires was not permitted to carry retardant, dump that load, then scoop water, without having it's hopper thoroughly cleaned out first. In Europe, they fly the Fire Boss' on "loaded patrol" missions, loaded with retardant. These missions are fire detection missions. If the pilot observes a new fire, he calls it in to dispatch, drops his load of retardant on the fire, then finds a lake, or ?? to scoop from, while waiting for the "cavalry" to arrive on scene.

Southern Boy can tell us if scoopers are still required to get a thorough rinse before scooping if they've carried retardant, but back a few years, the 215s never carried retardant in this country at least.

My wife and I came through Lyon, France a few years ago on an airline in the fall, and I was amazed at the array of CL-215, 415 and Fire Boss airplanes parked on the ramp there......quite a fleet.

MTV

MTV

mtv wrote: In the federal system, a journeyman pilot is a GS 12, many are GS 13. Those pay scales are available on line. MTV

Looks like GS 12 scale ranges from $62K to $80K a year, or $5K to almost $7K a month.

http://www.federaljobs.net/salarybase.htm

The federal salary system transitioned to a locality pay system a while back. The result of that transition is the base rate is paid to almost nobody...the locality tables are what people actually earn. The 'rest of the US' locality, which indicates you don't live in any of the more expensive locality centers, runs $71K to $90K per year at GS-12.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Juan Browne has a video he made last week about fire fighting pilot jobs. He addressed it to backcountry pilots, but I did not see it here.
Info from the fire fighting association:

https://youtu.be/Gm7Mn5SL700

C180Bill,
Thanks for posting the video! Sounds pretty exciting. Sitting at about 750 hours, mostly mountain, energy management. Need to get my CFI to get over the hump.
I'm fired up!