Or, just learn what the friggin airplane is telling you via your butt....these are NOT F/A-18s, folks.

MTV

mtv wrote:Or, just learn what the friggin airplane is telling you via your butt....these are NOT F/A-18s, folks.

MTV

That's my feeling as well. BUT, if you have to use one, I think it should be a combo instrument to reduce scan.

With the wind we had today I felt as though I was flying a harrier. It made for a ground roll of about 50ft or less on the ridges. I wonder what an AOA would have said.

I would say we have beaten this thread to death and were still only 50/50 on em.

AKT

C'mon we got 3 more pages in us.

Zane wrote:I was thinking about this, and I think the thing I find unappealing about the AOA indicator is that it's a second instrument, telling you related (not the same) information as ASI, just by measurement of a different piece of data. But when you think about how airspeed and AOA often are related in how we control an approach or climb, it seems like mixing these two on the same instrument would be really useful. A second instrument increases the scan distances and makes more work for the pilot, but an embedded instrument could really be efficient for the human brain.

Cool concept and nice depiction but I think it's overkill. If you truly start flying AoA, AS becomes less of a concern. All you really care about is if you are on-speed, whether that's on speed on approach or pulling your best turn at speed. I'm not arguing that GA AoA systems are reliable enough to be counted on in place of AS for reasons already identified, but your indicator doesn't address those limitations. So I guess what I'm saying is that if the ergonomics of the installation are right you wouldn't find an AoA indicator separate from the ASI burdensome.

Remember our instructors told us that an airplane can be stalled at any speed. But there is only one stall angle for a given airplane (airfoil). Having flown with an audible indication for a primary-importance instrument reading, I'm pretty confident that the audible tone is the least distracting and the most additional benefit of all the ideas being discussed. Our existing stall warning buzzer is halfway there anyway. We've proven that an audible warning works, and in training we are taught to fly around in "slow flight" based on keeping the buzzer on. All that's missing is a more use-able range of tones that we can get more useful info from.

By the way, my Alpha Systems has audible tones.

By the way, your butt also has TACTILE signals.

My point is not that these "pretend AOA" devices don't work about as well as the average stall horn in a GA aircraft, but just think about that.

I don't teach students to fly around with the stall horn bleating and call it "slow flight". I teach them to fly around with the airplane in the beginning of the stall buffet....THAT is slow flight, and once mastered, you'll be able to work an airplane MUCH closer and tighter than you will with ANY mechanical indicator.

Now, if you really ARE flying an airplane with a TRUE AOA system, you don't NEED an airspeed instrument, and in the type airplane typically equipped with a true AOA system, you simply don't EVER get the airplane into stall buffet in normal flight regimes.

Don't confuse swept wing aerodynamics with straight wing aerodynamics, or an airplane that lands at half the weight it departs with a small GA airplane.

There are lots of sources of information out there on aerodynamics, folks. Interesting stuff.

Here's a question for you fans of these things: Try calling an FAA aircraft certification office (NOT a FSDO) and ask them if it's legal to install one of these without an STC. In fact, in most districts, call the FSDO and ask them to field approve one.

If you're using this to manage airspeed while on approach, you are using it for primary information. Primary information MUST be derived from TSO'd and STC'd instruments, not just some gadget you thought was cool.

MTV

Regarding the need to keep the angle of attach sensor out of the propwash, but being unhappy with the difference between wing angle of attach from side to side; Why not use an indicator on each wing, and use the higher of the two readings in what ever readout you want? Seems like this would go a long way toward eliminating the objections many have had.

Another factor that some of the medium priced units correct for is the change in wing geometry as flaps are deployed.

The combination of all these "improvements" would seem to beg for a microprocessor based solution.

Anyone want to start a new company?

tom

Hey MauleGuy do you have an AOA in Bushwhacker? I didn't think so How about all them STOL comp planes at Valdez, do the top guns fly AOA indicators? Tadpole does Paul Claus run AOA indicators in his Super Cub or the 180? I doubt it but would like to know. I am not going to express IMO. I have friends who go both ways (AOA) that is and don't want to offend.

Cheers...Rob

Durango Skywagon wrote:By the way, my Alpha Systems has audible tones.

Well shit, I was already counting the money and picking out the Ferrari... Mother $*%^&#

Brad, see if you can turn up the volume on those audible tones, and adjust it so it gives you a rising or falling tone from normal approach speed down to actual stall speed, not just a "stall buzzer" at the last second. If it will do that, try flying around without looking at the visual AOA and relying on the audio only. Be smart, do it at altitude first.

I'm sure several of us would be pretty interested if your field testing does or does not validate what is being bandied about here.

Savannah Tom, I was starting to work on the idea of making a product out of this. Not the microprocessor so much as designing out the location and sensor errors, designing out yaw angle problems, designing out propeller flow field problems, etc. But I think a small processor somewhere in the system would indeed make sense. You could calibrate the entire system (and flap deployment changes where needed) for your airplane in about five minutes in flight, the same way you re-program the pre-select stations on your car radio.

Easyflap said:

Brad, see if you can turn up the volume on those audible tones, and adjust it so it gives you a rising or falling tone from normal approach speed down to actual stall speed, not just a "stall buzzer" at the last second. If it will do that, try flying around without looking at the visual AOA and relying on the audio only. Be smart, do it at altitude first.

Tones and buzzers are so Bush pilot,

From http://www.riteangle.com web site:

4. Optional voice audio messages are provided instead of warning lights or buzzers.
5. Safety messages consist of a “Caution-Slow” and “Stall, Stall” for those who have
that desire that option.

more...InstallCompanion2

Well it looks like were going to get a few more pages out of this one...Way to stir the pot Rob!! I thought for certain all you Maule guys would have an AOA...In second thought you do...Attitude On Arrival!!!...

I wish I could find an actual smiley face stirring a pot.

AKT

Just finished the install of my AOA tonight, took about 6 hours total. No time yet for the calibration, that will come next weekend. Tomorrow we are off to Benchmark for the work party. Based on the comments from the haters the AOA is inaccurate because of yawing of the aircraft, even though it may be slight. If that is in fact the case then I should be able to make the needle dance all over the place simply by applying rudder and yawing the plane back and forth. If that doesn't move the needle then I'll know a few people here who are full of shit. My AOA is installed in the aileron bellcrank inspection plate in the right wing, which is located just slightly inboard of the tie down ring. Looking forward to some testing. And as for FSDO, it's a minor mod. Lot's of laughing in these parts, including from the FSDO boss who my mechanic is friends with, about this in any way shape or form being anything other than minor.

aktahoe1 wrote:Well it looks like were going to get a few more pages out of this one...Way to stir the pot Rob!! I thought for certain all you Maule guys would have an AOA...In second thought you do...Attitude On Arrival!!!...

I wish I could find an actual smiley face stirring a pot.

AKT

Kevin you noticed I like to do that

I stared young


When I was in the fire dept


Now. "Hey Kev do dem reel bush hee pie lots usse AOA thingee bobers" "do unt no rob, butts we usz wrope two fix da broken plyn so weez can fly home"

Bonanza Man wrote:Just finished the install of my AOA tonight, took about 6 hours total. No time yet for the calibration, that will come next weekend. Tomorrow we are off to Benchmark for the work party. Based on the comments from the haters the AOA is inaccurate because of yawing of the aircraft, even though it may be slight. If that is in fact the case then I should be able to make the needle dance all over the place simply by applying rudder and yawing the plane back and forth. If that doesn't move the needle then I'll know a few people here who are full of shit. My AOA is installed in the aileron bellcrank inspection plate in the right wing, which is located just slightly inboard of the tie down ring. Looking forward to some testing. And as for FSDO, it's a minor mod. Lot's of laughing in these parts, including from the FSDO boss who my mechanic is friends with, about this in any way shape or form being anything other than minor.

That's all well and good--I can introduce you to FSDO types who will offer a VERY different conclusion. And, that IS the point--every FSDO has their own opinion on almost everything, and they vary all over the place. If you don't have some FAA type's signature in your logbook, and something happens in another FSDO, good luck.

Also, the POINT here is whether you can fly the airplane more precisely without these devices by learning to feel what the airplane is telling you.

And, most of us found out a long time ago that anyone who spends several hundred dollars and 6 hours installing some gadget may have a slightly biased opinion of its value... But, keep us posted.

Rob makes a good point...anyone out there who's actually WORKING an airplane have one of these installed? I was involved in one of those evaluations, as noted earlier. The Alaska FSDOs, alleged by everyone in the lower 48 to be willing to approve almost anything, wouldn't approve this device-we operated as a public aircraft. So, either the 135 folks either don't see any value in these, or the FAA says they can't install them, because they're 135, right? Go figure. I would suggest that if these things really do what they are purported to do, every air taxi airplane in Alaska would have one by now. GPS sure spread almost instantly in that community. So did the use of weather cameras.

Maybe Mr. Tweto will have one installed in his 180 next season....
MTV

All valid points MTV and yet Sparky was a believer, no questioning his credibility

[quote="mtv"]
That's all well and good--I can introduce you to FSDO types who will offer a VERY different conclusion. And, that IS the point--every FSDO has their own opinion on almost everything, and they vary all over the place. If you don't have some FAA type's signature in your logbook, and something happens in another FSDO, good luck.[quote="mtv"]

You people worry about FSDO too much. I really can't see how there would ever be a problem from any FSDO. What, are they going to break into my house some night and get a look at my log books? The local avionics shop is a dealer for these, they have hundreds installed to planes all over the country. It's just simply not an issue.


[quote="mtv"]And, most of us found out a long time ago that anyone who spends several hundred dollars and 6 hours installing some gadget may have a slightly biased opinion of its value... But, keep us posted.[quote="mtv"]

Perhaps, but I am already on record as stating that people who install VG's that claim vast improvements in the low speed handling are full of crap. I've had them on two planes now. I don't feel any of that. Plus my AOA was free. I'm only into it for a little install time.



[quote="mtv"]Rob makes a good point...anyone out there who's actually WORKING an airplane have one of these installed?[quote="mtv"]

Couldn't be less relevant. I don't work my plane and neither do 99% of the folks here.

Bonanza Man wrote: I'll know a few people here who are full of shit.

My eyes are brown. You are a government employee so I know you are full of it. Oh shit I forgot I was a govment man for 30 plus. Hows that for the pot calling the kettle black.

Anyone who knows me knows I love electronic gadgets. That goes for AOA. I would rather spend my money on a auto pilot.

The more you fly the better you will become. Gadgets help but there is no substitute for seat time. When I go to places like Mile High, Dewey Moore, and Vines I wish my plane looked more like MauleGuy's Maule.

Good day...Rob