On the go around I’d not want to calculate how much power is needed

185 amphib


208 amphib


L16


PC12



Even on big planes you hit the toga button, on some you can hit it twice for max power vs once for derate, but that’s computer set, and with auto throttles.

I’d just follow the book on a normal go around, maybe a less than full power would still clear the tree, but flying per the POH will clear the tree even more, and more is more better.

It is also 100% defendable should god forbid something happen, if goes sideways on the go around and the NTSV -> FAA finds you didn’t use full power (be it via analyzer data or just video etc) your going to get cooked like a thanksgiving day turkey

ington6 wrote:.....sometimes it does use all of your physical strength, full rudder, and brakes.....
it’s one of the best GA airplanes ever made.

I will definitely go along with the last statement, but I question the first.
I fly a fairly light 53 180, not a 185,
but physical strength only seems to come into play when pushing it around on the ground.
The skywagon is definitely a "trim required" airplane,
I can see how strength might play a role if you're not working at keeping it in trim.

I'm curious what tips you'd give a first time 180/185 owner after having owned yours now for about 3 years?

With all due respect, my 2000lb empty weight, WingX, 185F is a completely different plane than a 53’ 180. Not in the same ballpark. I learned how to fly on a 56 182 then owned a 58 for a while too. They are very light on the controls in comparison.

You’re right about trim but even with it there are going to be times you just need to be strong. If you are heavy, but also need to get the tail up quickly in the takeoff roll, doing a three point in a light plane which almost always has very forward CG, any go around. Etc.

Tips.. im hesitant to write anything here because I know pilots. There is always going to be someone to tell me I’m doing it wrong because I’m not doing it their way. But screw it…

I would get really good at tail low wheel landings and using brakes. You’re going so slow at touchdown that bouncing isn’t an issue and the use of brakes really really gives you so much control over that plane. As I said, you’re showing it who is boss and not being passive. As rudder authority lowers, it is a non event because you’re keeping that plane straight with some brakes. Landing like this and you will consistently land in under 500’ even when you’re not trying to “land short”. The roll out phase will be over in seconds and you’ll wonder why so many people are scared of this plane. Until you go to a fly in and see an airline pilot float it down the runway, trying to do a blind three point with wayyyy too much speed. Then you understand it a little more. (No offense to airline guys. I’m just recollecting on an actual experience I had). In regards to brakes, I even had a takeoff at a strip in the AZ backcountry when the wind switched on my during takeoff roll. The plane need full rudder and some right brake to keep it straight even on takeoff. If I was scared of the brakes, who knows what would have happened there but I used every tool in the kit to keep it straight. Everything worked out and off I went.

Secondly, I would fly 200+ hours your first year. With lots of landings… you need to commit to it and just dabbling once a month probably isn’t a good move if you’re new to them.

Thirdly, aileron. Absolutely drill your aileron input at all stages of taxi takeoff and landing. My first hour flying a Wagon and my instructor said I will 100% ground loop if I didn’t use them to the fullest. It’s built into my muscles now and I don’t think about it.

That’s all I can think of now. But I’m no guru. I still bounced it hard completely randomly one day in Montana when it dropped out on me arriving to Ryan field. Shit happens. But it was never unsafe or close to looping. Let me know if I can answer any more questions on the transition.

You're really comparing apples to oranges, comparing a light early 180 to a later model 185. They are very different airplanes.

I totally agree with Ington's description of the 185 being a muscular airplane, that requires the pilot to use a good bit of force at times, and it's definitely an airplane that you FLY, as in making it do what YOU want it to do. No fingertip flying, at least in some regimes.

Much of that is power related, but the combination of power and trimmable stabilizer, as I noted before in this thread.

But, even a light 180 can give you a little bit of a window into that world. Here's the set up:

Empty airplane, landing configuration, with full flaps. Slow it down to slow but safe close in approach speed. Power at minimum to maintain speed. Trim off as much (preferably ALL) back pressure on yoke, which will put the trim at or near the full nose up setting (full aft trim).

Now, as you approach the runway, add FULL power and execute a go-around.

Even that light airplane of yours will give you a bit of a work out. In a 185, that set up can create sufficient forces to cause an accident.....more power, more inertia.....

The answer to that scenario is I almost NEVER fly an approach close in and slow with full flaps and full aft trim. I roll in some nose down trim, and hold back pressure on the yoke. This does two things: In the event of a go around, I'm already trimmed nose down enough to allow for reasonable yoke pressures on the go around, till I get flaps to 20.

But, secondly, as I hold back pressure prior to the landing, with trim some nose down, the airplane touches, and what does every pilot reallly WANT to do when they first touch? RELAX! So, as the plane touches, just relax that back pressure, and now you've got the beginning of a really nice tail low wheel landing.....after that quick moment of relaxing, push on the yoke, as the tail comes up to keep it up, but that bit of nose down trim will automatically start the tail up at the touch, when relaxed.

That technique can even make me look good occasionally.....

MTV

Yup…

You also have to realize that I weigh 1000 more pounds than your 53’ when both at gross weight.

What Mike is saying is really true. If I am wheel landing with passengers and bags, it’s not possible to keep the tail up with proper approach trim. (3550 lbs) Even using all of the brakes, they aren’t powerful enough to keep the tail in the air. So imagine adding some nose down trim to lighten the load, some brakes to slow/maintain directional control and keep the tail up, but also some muscle on the yoke to push forward. All of those forces working together make it not such a big deal but you need the muscle in my opinion.

Now that I think about it a little more. Just about every wheel landing requires muscle. Part of my “show it who is boss” mentality is also telling the airplane when it should fly or not. So forward pressure on the wheel landing and decreasing the angle of attack is really important. Telling that bird that it’s time to sit on the ground now, we’re done flying for the moment. Even not letting the tail down until you say so. Keep it up with forward pressure, brakes, or even a touch of power to softly lower the tail when you give the command. You don’t want to be in that weird indecisive lazy position when your tail is low, your touching down, high Aoa, lazy aileron and there is no decisive actions given to the plane. Not sure if that makes sense but I hope so.

Never really thought about having to muscle a airplane much

It’s all relative. Maybe you’re stronger than me. I only weigh 170.

ington6 wrote:It’s all relative. Maybe you’re strong than me. I only weigh 170.

I’m a little bigger but not by much, think I’m just more airplane agnostic lol

The 185 you for sure need to trim more than say a 7AC, I remember my first go around in a 208B, yeah got to be thinking trim, same with V1 cuts in other planes.

Biggest thing I notice with the wagon is it is more CG sensitive than some of the other 100 series Cessnas, or at least it feel that way to me

It's definitely not a finger tip flyer, at least not if you're working it. And, "working it" in this context has nothing to do with commercial ops.

MTV

“The answer to that scenario is I almost NEVER fly an approach close in and slow with full flaps and full aft trim. I roll in some nose down trim, and hold back pressure on the yoke. This does two things: In the event of a go around, I'm already trimmed nose down enough to allow for reasonable yoke pressures on the go around, till I get flaps to 20.”

This is probably best thing I’ve ever read on here. Thanks Mike.

Even when empty with a forward CG you don't trim full aft on final?

With both my previous and current 185 I am still pulling on the yoke with full aft trim with just one or two people and nothing else.

But even with the forward CG full aft trim is too much for full power go around. About half throttle is adequate.

Are you trimming to a specific speed on downwind or base and just leaving it there?

I almost always wheel land on pavement, but once touched down I like to get slowed down--
usually braking (carefully) with the tail up & getting the tail down asap.
I feel like I have more control with all three wheels down,
I then have tailwheel steering as well as brakes available as tools.
Slowing down too much with the tail still up can be problematic,
since you don't have enough airflow for the rudder to be real effective.
Plus I've experienced a crosswind shifting to a (quartering) tailwind--
I don't want the tail up for either one.

I'm usually flying light, and the empty CG on my 53 is a pretty far forward.
I almost always land with full flaps as well as full nose-up trim.
In my experience, *most* go-arounds don't require immediate full climb power.
I'll usually cob in the throttle part way, enough to level off or get a bit of positive climb rate.
Then while I'm keeping forward pressure on the yoke, I work on rolling the trim forward & getting the flaps to 20.
Then get the rest of the throttle in, trim for the climb out, and eventually getting the flaps all the way off.

What I have found that unless loaded heavy with mid range cg, that I need full nose up trim, and still pulling some. That's bringing it in slow, 55 to 60 mph on final, stall horn going at 10'. When I have flown it down to the runway at 70 mph or more I don't need more than about 2/3 nose up trim.

I also agree that with full nose up trim, going to full power on a go around is a handful, and the trim wheel is hard to work with the flap handle at 10 or 20 while pushing hard on the yoke. I like to use enough power to get out of trouble, while backing off the trim and flaps, then go to full power.

My CG is quite forward, with me and full tanks the CG is about at forward limits. But, with a sportsman the leading edge is another couple inches farther forward. To me, to have the same MAC, the CG range could move forward a corresponding amount.

Though my 185 normally lives in the amphib configuration, I always just trim the pressure off the controls, same as with anything else

On a go around with full flaps that’s a ton of drag, I figure it needs all available power for the delay, as I only have 2 arms, between adding throttle and getting to flaps 20.

That old adage of we train how we want to preform and we will perform how we train

half power or the like with full flaps on a go around over a long runway or lake probably isn’t a issue, but Murphy's law the one time you need to get some distance between you and a plane that wrongly started its takeoff roll under you, or you get wind shear, etc you’re going to not want to end up with a pitch up attitude with full flaps and anything less than full power IMHO

Shy of large cross winds, or shooting a IAP into large runways, I’m full flaps to land, trim the pressure off

Go around
Full power
Flaps 20
Positive rate gear up
60kts till clear

One option would be to just always use flaps 20 for landing, less control force, easier on the go around, just less landing performance and more energy on touchdown

Another though for anyone who has issues with the control force would be to install electric trim, when doing a go around, as well as other maneuvers, your thumb is automatically trimming the plane, go around and without even just thinking it thumb forward. So you can have the other hand to do flaps, throttle etc

Oddly doing go around in the 208 amphibs I preferred to just make a big sweep on that nice big manual trim wheel, the wheel on the 185 does seem small and stiff in comparison

As far as I know, there is no electric trim available for a 180/185. You can do it on a 182 or 206.

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Go around
Full power
Flaps 20
Positive rate gear up
60kts till clear

This right here would likely kill me and is the reason I have to practice a slightly different procedure.

Go around (when full flaps and with pressure trimmed off)
Full power.
Trim nose down fast like hell about 10 rolls.
Only then….flaps 20.
Then, as filed.

There simply isn’t enough strength either in my arms or in my seat locks to push hard enough to keep the plane from severely pitching up and stalling with full power, flaps 20, and with aft trim. There are plenty of fatal crashes on takeoff with seat failures and departure stalls with 20 degrees of flaps when the pilot forgot to reset the trim for takeoff.

Squash wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:

Go around
Full power
Flaps 20
Positive rate gear up
60kts till clear

This right here would likely kill me and is the reason I have to practice a slightly different procedure.

Go around (when full flaps and with pressure trimmed off)
Full power.
Trim nose down fast like hell about 10 rolls.
Only then….flaps 20.
Then, as filed.

There simply isn’t enough strength either in my arms or in my seat locks to push hard enough to keep the plane from severely pitching up and stalling with full power, flaps 20, and with aft trim. There are plenty of fatal crashes on takeoff with seat failures and departure stalls with 20 degrees of flaps when the pilot forgot to reset the trim for takeoff.

Yup.

Did my commercial and CFI training in a ‘56 182. Same airframe and engine as the 180 of that year (ish). I’d reccomend taking an instructor up with you and doing elevator stalls. In my experience I haven’t been able to stall the airplane at full power. With full nose up trim, it certainly gives you a jolt, but is manageable once you get the flow going. Experiment at full barndoor and full power to see how much your performance is degraded. Work your flow out so you make a comfortable recovery.

Just to add a thought no one has mentioned yet- I read somewhere that landing with 30 degrees of flaps is a nice middle ground in a 185 it produces flatter approach than 40 degrees, and thus less descent rate but still plenty slow. I use 40 degrees when I need it, but I like the approach angle of 30 and I find my contact with the ground is often a lot softer. It works for me 3 point or wheel landing.

Brad

Full flaps vs less than full flaps is mostly a scenario based decision. I use full flaps most of the time, except in gusty winds, especially gusty crosswinds. There, I generally use 20 flaps.

For years and a lot of hours, I flew 185s with Robertson STOL kits installed. In that installation, the maximum aileron droop is at 30 degree flap setting. Pull on 40 degrees and the ailerons retract some, providing a little better aileron authority. So, I'm most comfortable with 40 vs 30 for landing.

Whatever flap setting you find works best for your operations is fine. That said, I also try to practice for worst case scenario, even during "normal" ops. Full flaps gets you minimum arrival speeds.

Just stay proficient at appropriate configurations because you never know when you might need same.