Being new (and unimpressed) to Robertson I don’t understand why there is more droop at 30 than 40.

I would kinda rather the ailerons don’t come down until 40.

So far I am not convinced the ailerons coming down do much of anything but reduce your roll authority.

I liked my old 185 better.

Ross4289 wrote:Being new (and unimpressed) to Robertson I don’t understand why there is more droop at 30 than 40.

I would kinda rather the ailerons don’t come down until 40.

So far I am not convinced the ailerons coming down do much of anything but reduce your roll authority.

I liked my old 185 better.

Think the less aileron at 40 is for better roll performance

The R STOL works, it’s one of the very only mods that actually changes the placarded stall speeds, but with everything it requires practice and has its handoffs

It isn’t very often that you have to climb immediately on a go around. You just need to stop descending. But you do need to keep your eyes outside to figure how much climb you need at the moment. So my full flap go arounds:
Power up. Not 100%. Just enough to make it loud and make the runway start getting smaller(I’m not looking at the MAP gauge or anything else inside).
Flaps 30, pause long enough to see if there’s a sag. If not, Flaps 20.
Full power and a couple big sweeps of trim.
Glance at the ASI as I’m going to flaps 0.
Trim for climb, start coming back on rpm, etc.

Missed approaches are a different animal, since you have to do it all on instruments. The only time I’ve come close to trouble was when I was on a missed and was moving too slowly with the flaps, trim, throttle sequence. My safety pilot/CFII/son said, “You’re going to have to climb at some point. This would be a good time for that.”

Icewater in his veins, that kid…..

StuBob wrote:It isn’t very often that you have to climb immediately on a go around. You just need to stop descending. But you do need to keep your eyes outside to figure how much climb you need at the moment. So my full flap go arounds:
Power up. Not 100%. Just enough to make it loud and make the runway start getting smaller(I’m not looking at the MAP gauge or anything else inside).
Flaps 30, pause long enough to see if there’s a sag. If not, Flaps 20.
Full power and a couple big sweeps of trim.
Glance at the ASI as I’m going to flaps 0.
Trim for climb, start coming back on rpm, etc.

Missed approaches are a different animal, since you have to do it all on instruments. The only time I’ve come close to trouble was when I was on a missed and was moving too slowly with the flaps, trim, throttle sequence. My safety pilot/CFII/son said, “You’re going to have to climb at some point. This would be a good time for that.”

Icewater in his veins, that kid…..

If I could go video game mode to the MEF elevation the second I “nooped out” I’d take that all day

This minimum power to clear is a very very silly/dangerous idea

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... This minimum power to clear is a very very silly/dangerous idea

It depends on the situation.
Sometimes positive rate of climb (or even just stopping the descent) is enough.

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... This minimum power to clear is a very very silly/dangerous idea

It depends on the situation.
Sometimes positive rate of climb (or even just stopping the descent) is enough.

The problem is, things are getting REALLY busy about now.....do you really want to be "guessing" whether you're leveled off/climbing, while you're reducing flaps, avoiding the stall, pitching properly, etc, etc, and MAYBE all of a sudden realize that tree is getting kinda close.....as viewed through the top of the windshield?

Nope, this evolution is just too busy. You are NOT going to hurt that engine or the airframe by using all the power the engine can generate at that DA. If you set the trim properly on short final, there's generally no reason NOT to use max power.

And, the risk here is we fight like we train. Sometimes, when things get busy, it's better to have a rote response built in. Go around from close to the ground during a descent is borderline emergency.

MTV

MTV

mtv wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote:..... This minimum power to clear is a very very silly/dangerous idea

It depends on the situation.
Sometimes positive rate of climb (or even just stopping the descent) is enough.

The problem is, things are getting REALLY busy about now.....do you really want to be "guessing" whether you're leveled off/climbing, while you're reducing flaps, avoiding the stall, pitching properly, etc, etc, and MAYBE all of a sudden realize that tree is getting kinda close.....as viewed through the top of the windshield?

Nope, this evolution is just too busy. You are NOT going to hurt that engine or the airframe by using all the power the engine can generate at that DA. If you set the trim properly on short final, there's generally no reason NOT to use max power.

And, the risk here is we fight like we train. Sometimes, when things get busy, it's better to have a rote response built in. Go around from close to the ground during a descent is borderline emergency.

MTV

MTV

^x2


I hear and fully believe in “it depends” when it comes to many things in aviation, this isn’t one of them though

That said, is there any POH, GOM, FAA doc, etc that says to just use enough power and doesn’t say full power/take off power/go around power on a balked landing or go around? I have never seen go around: power as required

Been flying 91/135/121 been on a few certificates and been blessed to have flown a good chunk of aircraft, I don’t recall every seeing not to use full/takeoff/TOGA power in black and white, nor do I think it would turn out well if done on a ride

When I was getting checked out in my 185, I made the mistake of not going full power on a full flaps go-around. I still remember the dressing-down i got from the instructor/examiner...as MTV notes, you fight like you train, and all of this should be muscle memory, because things happen fast.

So you guys that are always using full power on a go around, you are not trimming out the pressure on final? As in full aft trim when empty?

Full power with full aft trim takes about everything my left arm has to hold the nose down, and dipping my head under the dash to reach the trim wheel to madly trim is not where I want to be when 20 feet off the ground.

When light and on wheels, half throttle is plenty to climb away at a decent rate in a 185.

NineThreeKilo wrote: Been flying 91/135/121 been on a few certificates and been blessed to have flown a good chunk of aircraft, I don’t recall every seeing not to use full/takeoff/TOGA power in black and white, nor do I think it would turn out well if done on a ride

Man you make a lot of noise ....

The TOGA button in your beloved 73' By definition uses reduced power, until you tap it again. Why? because it's taking the thinking out of the equation for the guys that didn't learn energy management before they learned systems management.

'Balls to the wall' will most certainly do the job, and in these little planes, will absolutely produce a calculated result, assuming you're flying the same ship your POH was designed around 70 years ago. The POH's are chock full of examples of how to do something to exact a result. Not the best, not the fastest, not the slowest, just the exact result they tested and determined under standard conditions at gross weight, repeatable for certification. Does that mean a plane won't land or take off shorter than 'book'? Go faster, slower, higher quieter, noisier, smoother or rougher? No, it simply means that Joe D Engineer shoved the throttle to the stop, and this is what it did. Why the stop? because everyone of these little ships rolls off the line rigged the same. So it's a known setting, and one they can test and record the expected outcome in the POH. There is absolutely nothing wrong with flying by the book, in fact it is the preferred route, I just happen to value pilots that know how to fly a wing over those that fly a mean book.

This thread reminds me of a loaner AT-502 I climbed in once. Dumping the data just to see what the engine temps / torques looked like I couldn't help but notice the G's . Later I half jokingly asked the prior pilot what that was all about, and he said 'we don't get paid in the turns'... . I flew the same plane for the season with finger tips, and I am no Bob Hoover, easier on the plane, easier on the body, and not a lick less acres covered. I just learned early on that I'm not strapping in to one to fight, I'm strapping in to it enjoy the dance.

YMMV...


Take care, Rob

Ross4289 wrote:So you guys that are always using full power on a go around, you are not trimming out the pressure on final? As in full aft trim when empty?

I trim, and teach to trim, hands free, or as close as the system will allow, so yes, in the C18X that usually means, full up on a light landing

Ross4289 wrote:Full power with full aft trim takes about everything my left arm has to hold the nose down, and dipping my head under the dash to reach the trim wheel to madly trim is not where I want to be when 20 feet off the ground.

When light and on wheels, half throttle is plenty to climb away at a decent rate in a 185.

I land hand on the throttle, I usually have my eyes open, and prefer not to fight an airplane. I stoke it till I get what I want, if that means I'm at the stop? well... I'm going to have a tired left hand and a busy right one... Haven't yet found that need.


Almost every new ag pilot we go through, asks me 'how much flap in the turn?' and / or how much flap dump on the roll after the initial? Shit.... I dunno? start dropping them till it does what you want, and quit before it does what you don't? it's not rocket science, let's not make it be.

Take care,, Rob

Rob wrote:

NineThreeKilo wrote: Been flying 91/135/121 been on a few certificates and been blessed to have flown a good chunk of aircraft, I don’t recall every seeing not to use full/takeoff/TOGA power in black and white, nor do I think it would turn out well if done on a ride

Man you make a lot of noise ....

The TOGA button in your beloved 73' By definition uses reduced power, until you tap it again. Why? because it's taking the thinking out of the equation for the guys that didn't learn energy management before they learned systems management.

'Balls to the wall' will most certainly do the job, and in these little planes, will absolutely produce a calculated result, assuming you're flying the same ship your POH was designed around 70 years ago. The POH's are chock full of examples of how to do something to exact a result. Not the best, not the fastest, not the slowest, just the exact result they tested and determined under standard conditions at gross weight, repeatable for certification. Does that mean a plane won't land or take off shorter than 'book'? Go faster, slower, higher quieter, noisier, smoother or rougher? No, it simply means that Joe D Engineer shoved the throttle to the stop, and this is what it did. Why the stop? because everyone of these little ships rolls off the line rigged the same. So it's a known setting, and one they can test and record the expected outcome in the POH. There is absolutely nothing wrong with flying by the book, in fact it is the preferred route, I just happen to value pilots that know how to fly a wing over those that fly a mean book.

This thread reminds me of a loaner AT-502 I climbed in once. Dumping the data just to see what the engine temps / torques looked like I couldn't help but notice the G's . Later I half jokingly asked the prior pilot what that was all about, and he said 'we don't get paid in the turns'... . I flew the same plane for the season with finger tips, and I am no Bob Hoover, easier on the plane, easier on the body, and not a lick less acres covered. I just learned early on that I'm not strapping in to one to fight, I'm strapping in to it enjoy the dance.

YMMV...


Take care, Rob

Yeah, when people advocate doing stuff that’s 100% counter every flight manual and ops document, I like to speak up.

I like this group and don’t want to see someone hurt for no good reason


If the airframe or engine can not handle a POH/AFM laid out balked landing procedure, the aircraft is NOT AIRWORTHY


Could you just cite me one manual for a plane like a Cessna skywagon that says use anything other than full/takeofff power?

Just one and I’ll drop it

I don’t fly a little 73, but yes we have de rates with one hit of TOGA, however the small jets and other turbines I flew would all call for takeoff power and had no such derates, I will also add we are REQUIRED to do full blast takeoffs, just the same as we are required to do auto lands etc.

Dont think the mighty wagon has a derate ether

As professional pilots we are trusted with safeguarding skin, tin and ticket, making up procedures and ignoring very clearly worded procedures in the book ain’t doing that. Can we get away with stupid pilot tricks outside of the book and limitations, sure, but it’s still not safe, legal, or prudent.

But yeah, just link one approved POH/AFM/GOM saying not to do a full power balked landing in a sky wagon

Rob wrote:it's not rocket science, let's not make it be.

Couldn’t agree more Rob.

Well you did ask. The first post on Page 4 under Paragraphs 2-26 to 2-39. 2-37 . GO-AROUND. states" Full throttle may be applied immediately" note it says MAY not MUST be applied immediately!! Also warns "If the trim tab has been moved to tail heavy position for landing, care should be taken to prevent the nose from coming up too fast as power is applied and speed increases". I would think the best way to follow the second advice would be to add enough power to stop decent reconfigure for climb than add power. The note on Section 4 is Airspeeds for normal operation. It does not say how to get to that configuration just that is the recommended configuration for a go around. Inexperienced pilots get killed trying to do high power go arounds for the simple reason of that is how they were trained. CFI's and the FAA try to make it simple so full power is a good easy and probably most important an easy test standard even if it is not the best answer. Trying to get pilots to pay for a few extra hours of training in proper energy management and finding instructors that can train it properly would be best but then how does a DPE evaluate a vague procedure? If you are taking a test then full power it is otherwise. Use the power needed to continue the amended flight and do not turn a simple course adjustment into a Dangerous situation.
DENNY

Ross4289 wrote:So you guys that are always using full power on a go around, you are not trimming out the pressure on final? As in full aft trim when empty?

Full power with full aft trim takes about everything my left arm has to hold the nose down, and dipping my head under the dash to reach the trim wheel to madly trim is not where I want to be when 20 feet off the ground.

When light and on wheels, half throttle is plenty to climb away at a decent rate in a 185.

As I noted earlier in this (or maybe a different thread.. ), when light in a C-185, you are fwd CG, and if you trim off all pressure, full power will create a pretty serious nose up pitching moment, as you note.

While Rob argues trim all forces off, that implies trim off the forces on approach, then push up power....now, maybe not even max power, but even a fair bit of power is going to create a nose up pitching moment. So, no finger tips applied till you can trim off the pressure

Point is, one way or another, you will be flying off trim for a while, if you go around.

My "solution", since I believe in using max power in a go around (your mileage may vary, suit yourself) I roll in some nose down trim on short final, as we slow down. Now, that requires holding a bit of back pressure on the yoke....sorry Rob, no finger tip gig here. But, as the airplane touches, I simply release that back pressure I was holding, and the plane simply rolls up onto it's wheels mostly by itself. No more judging timing, just release back pressure at the touch.

If, on the other hand, a go around is required, I select full power, and that nose down trim is already applied. Stick forces are significantly minimized, and pretty easy to control, while I'm working the flaps up to climb.

I've checked out several women (a couple of them quite petite) in 185s, and using this procedure, none of them had big issues with the control forces.

In fact, I used this so much in 185s that I've kind of got in the habit of using it in other taildraggers.....a little nose down trim on short-short final, at the touch, release back pressure, and voila....easy wheel landings.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but this is worth a trial.

When I bought my wagon, my insurance required 10hrs of dual.

I was highly encouraged by friends to seek out an old grey beard wizard called Dave Younkin. Been there done that kinda guy. Prob one of the greats…

For two days we battered the thin air around the front range where I scrambled to gulp down as much as I could handle.

One of the biggies Dave taught me was with respect to trim. For most of our pattern work, Dave demanded I not touch the trim. We set it to neutral, and then flew lap after lap with burning fore arms.

I was annoyed at the time, but it taught me valuable lessons about trim and power.

Bigrenna wrote:When I bought my wagon, my insurance required 10hrs of dual.

I was highly encouraged by friends to seek out an old grey beard wizard called Dave Younkin. Been there done that kinda guy. Prob one of the greats…

For two days we battered the thin air around the front range where I scrambled to gulp down as much as I could handle.

One of the biggies Dave taught me was with respect to trim. For most of our pattern work, Dave demanded I not touch the trim. We set it to neutral, and then flew lap after lap with burning fore arms.

I was annoyed at the time, but it taught me valuable lessons about trim and power.

Spent a week with Dave flying his 185 before I bought mine, just to make sure I could fly it and enjoy it. After my purchase we spent another week dialing in my airplane. Dave could make that machine dance, at 78 or so, with 3 fingers on the yolk. It was an amazing experience, and I credit Dave's teaching and foundation skill work with the fact that 16 years in my plane with a few thousand hours, and no bent metal. Like Greg says, we started with neutral trim and got used to doing everything, then slowly dialed in trim here and there, but always cautiously. In between flights, he would chain smoke Pall Mall's and the wisdom would just keep coming. He loved the 185, had mastered it, and enjoyed passing on his knowledge. I think he's passed now, thankful for our time together.

As far as float ops go there seems to be a lots of fatals trying to go around. Everybody has there own methods but most people don't realize there is only 2 or 3 mph diff in the stall speed between 20 and 40 flaps. We normally always land with 20 unless rough water and only pull on 40 at the very last if we need and are fully committed. You get in a real short lake in high winds with a grossed out 185 with full flaps and landing trim and decide to go around you need some serious skills. As Mike said its kind of an emergency procedure. You are going to burn up a lot of real estate getting from just ready to touch down at 40 flap to a good solid climb rate at max gross.
I can only remember going around once on floats and flaps 20 made a bad situation pretty simple.

peterdillon wrote:As far as float ops go there seems to be a lots of fatals trying to go around. Everybody has there own methods but most people don't realize there is only 2 or 3 mph diff in the stall speed between 20 and 40 flaps. We normally always land with 20 unless rough water and only pull on 40 at the very last if we need and are fully committed. You get in a real short lake in high winds with a grossed out 185 with full flaps and landing trim and decide to go around you need some serious skills. As Mike said its kind of an emergency procedure. You are going to burn up a lot of real estate getting from just ready to touch down at 40 flap to a good solid climb rate at max gross.
I can only remember going around once on floats and flaps 20 made a bad situation pretty simple.

Perhaps for those of us flying floats for personal use, maybe holding one self to 135 spec with a “checkride” every 6mo would be a good idea.

Perhaps the reason for the fatals are people trying to make up their own procedures, like the limited power nonsense


A go around should be simple procedure, some stick and rudder sure, it should be so baked into one’s mind and be practically mental autopilot, hair trigger locked n’ loaded every landing. Mind space wise its like those western where the guy has his hand over his pistol rearing to draw, but it out case that’s the TOGA button, it’s a easier and faster call to go around than land.


With work we’d do go rounds from IAPs, visual water, simulated engine fail to a g/a etc, as a training Capt and later Dir of Training being able to do a go around from any configuration was required to even make it to our second in command development program.

In the wild, landing on a busy body of water that we did, I’d wager all our pilots did a real go around once a month or so, those were 208Bs.

NineThreeKilo wrote: Perhaps for those of us flying floats for personal use, maybe holding one self to 135 spec with a “checkride” every 6mo would be a good idea.

Perhaps the reason for the fatals are people trying to make up their own procedures, like the limited power nonsense


A go around should be simple procedure, some stick and rudder sure, it should be so baked into one’s mind and be practically mental autopilot, hair trigger locked n’ loaded every landing. Mind space wise its like those western where the guy has his hand over his pistol rearing to draw, but it out case that’s the TOGA button, it’s a easier and faster call to go around than land.


With work we’d do go rounds from IAPs, visual water, simulated engine fail to a g/a etc, as a training Capt and later Dir of Training being able to do a go around from any configuration was required to even make it to our second in command development program.

In the wild, landing on a busy body of water that we did, I’d wager all our pilots did a real go around once a month or so, those were 208Bs.

Man I wish I had a cool title or two, some t-prop experience, maybe even a float ticket to boot

Maybe then I'd have a grasp on what's so hard about making an airplane that was flying, just milliseconds ago, do it again? The reason for the fatals is a simple lack of the ability to understand a wing, coupled with a knee jerk reaction. A glider can make a go around, not only without a TOGA, but without the whole dang engine....


Take care, Rob