Call me a cynic, but I expect they will be about as successful with this as they were with the third class medical. The problem is, aviators at our level are too insignificant in terms of numbers to have any real representation. For years, AOPA has only been interested in pandering to the kerosene burning crowd and self-aggrandizement. I suspect they start these efforts as an attempt to convince us GA types to renew our subscriptions, but like with the third class medical, will cave fairly quickly and not pursue "all remedies available at law." Given the current political climate, the "government" doesn't like the idea of its subjects having the kind of freedom flying provides. Effective representation is more important than ever.

Best,
O – 2

OscarDeuce wrote:Call me a cynic...

OK, you're a cynic! Plus I agree with everything you wrote. My membership expires next month and I can't decide about renewal...

I already let my membership lapse as I saw them as a misnomer. (sp)

Should be AIRLINE owners and etc.

The only one I still take is the Aviation Safety rag.
Used to enjoy the Pacific Flyer but they went under.

Trim

I like .orgs that understand the social class I am in (as a paying member) and not "get off" on how much money and power people have. I am not in the entertainment business or politics.

The EAA muesem is a "Look Mom" we have a bunch of cool things show (mostly but, not all displays). No real continuity or learning value from the little time I saw it.

$00.02

OscarDeuce wrote:Call me a cynic, but I expect they will be about as successful with this as they were with the third class medical. The problem is, aviators at our level are too insignificant in terms of numbers to have any real representation. For years, AOPA has only been interested in pandering to the kerosene burning crowd and self-aggrandizement. I suspect they start these efforts as an attempt to convince us GA types to renew our subscriptions, but like with the third class medical, will cave fairly quickly and not pursue "all remedies available at law." Given the current political climate, the "government" doesn't like the idea of its subjects having the kind of freedom flying provides. Effective representation is more important than ever.

Best,
O – 2

Okay, not only are you a cynic, but you're full of shit.

I too am concerned that AOPA is devoting a little too much focus on the kerosine crowd.....BUT $$$$$ is what makes a lobbying organization effective. So, how much have YOU (or me) contributed to that effort?? Me, not so much.

But, it takes bucks to be effective as a lobbyist, and that is an unfortunate fact of our flawed political system.

The good news in regard to AOPA is that Fuller is leaving soon. While he's an accomplished lobbyist, he doesn't relate we'll to the "little guy" though he owns a Husky.

I have to laugh at the folks who are "offended" by the AOPA magazine, but don't bother to read the notices that clearly state that you don't have to subscribe to the "turbine" section of the magazine. In fact, the "non turbine" version of the magazine has a LOT of good stuff.

Finally, we NEED advocacy for general aviation, and AOPA does that. Without advocacy, GA will die.

I repeat....you're full of shit. Membership costs just a few gallons of gas. AOPA and EAA are the best advocates we've got out there, folks. Abandon them, or communicate to them your concerns. Me, I'm still working with these organizations.

You can play four year old and take your marbles home cause the organizations don't do EVERYTHING YOU think they should do, or you can understand that they represent a large and diverse group.

Whatever.

MTV

AOPA, EAA, etc should also reflect on the mistakes we have made in GA. The orgs seem to be in a self inflicted love fest, most of the time, which to me gets old fast. Life is not a bowl of cherries to me.

And the political structure is like Government supported unions having the majority vote in a public election.

The majority of the paying members seem to be pawns? I hope I am wrong, or it changes to views which suit my values better.

I am not jumping ship with my financial support because, to me, they are important .orgs. But, ... I do think better direction is called for. Like the 3rd class...

mtv wrote:

OscarDeuce wrote:Call me a cynic, but I expect they will be about as successful with this as they were with the third class medical. The problem is, aviators at our level are too insignificant in terms of numbers to have any real representation. For years, AOPA has only been interested in pandering to the kerosene burning crowd and self-aggrandizement. I suspect they start these efforts as an attempt to convince us GA types to renew our subscriptions, but like with the third class medical, will cave fairly quickly and not pursue "all remedies available at law." Given the current political climate, the "government" doesn't like the idea of its subjects having the kind of freedom flying provides. Effective representation is more important than ever.

Best,
O – 2

Okay, not only are you a cynic, but you're full of shit.

I too am concerned that AOPA is devoting a little too much focus on the kerosine crowd.....BUT $$$$$ is what makes a lobbying organization effective. So, how much have YOU (or me) contributed to that effort?? Me, not so much.

But, it takes bucks to be effective as a lobbyist, and that is an unfortunate fact of our flawed political system.

The good news in regard to AOPA is that Fuller is leaving soon. While he's an accomplished lobbyist, he doesn't relate we'll to the "little guy" though he owns a Husky.

I have to laugh at the folks who are "offended" by the AOPA magazine, but don't bother to read the notices that clearly state that you don't have to subscribe to the "turbine" section of the magazine. In fact, the "non turbine" version of the magazine has a LOT of good stuff.

Finally, we NEED advocacy for general aviation, and AOPA does that. Without advocacy, GA will die.

I repeat....you're full of shit. Membership costs just a few gallons of gas. AOPA and EAA are the best advocates we've got out there, folks. Abandon them, or communicate to them your concerns. Me, I'm still working with these organizations.

You can play four year old and take your marbles home cause the organizations don't do EVERYTHING YOU think they should do, or you can understand that they represent a large and diverse group.

Whatever.

MTV

Edit - because I decided to put my big boy pants on and not respond to childish ad hominem attacks in kind. (Go look it up, MTV). Ok, I lied a little...

Best,
O-2

MTV:
Mike, you have some good points, but maybe dial the emotion back a tad?

We all have opinions based on our experiences and background.....
Maybe we on here (BCP) we should pass around a big 'glass of respect".....?
I confess on occasion I should take/need a couple of big swigs of it, too.

Just a thought....
lc

Whoa, now it is snowballing!

Maybe delete delete delete guys!
We have an airplane wreck going at our flyin, don't start a wreck here.... Please

Must be hot out.... people are getting grumpy.
I am pretty sure AOPA won't get anywhere with CBP, but they will attempt it on our behalf.
They still get my dues whether they succeed or not on this issue. Call me a fool. But, please don't tell me I am full of sh...
I remember a news clip a few years back. Two neighbors.... hot day. One dead, the other going to prison. They used to get along pretty good. Turns out the argument was about a garden hose. Insulting each other is just not called for here on a public forum.
Cheers mates, Nick

Let's stick together as team. We will get more respect from ground based crew!

I'm not going to say I'm sorry, because I'm not going to apologize for my comments. I've been flying, commercially and privately since 1969, and it has always frosted my butt that many of the folks who have reaped the rewards that general aviation affords choose to attack the only support networks that we as general aviation pilots have....why? I have no idea...because they are jealous that some general aviation pilots can actually afford to own a jet? I for one am all for jet ownership, and I fully support folks owning as many airplanes of whatever types they can afford and can support financially. Let's not forget that the taxes that the guy or gal in the Citation pays on his or her fuel helps to pay for the airport improvements that the rest of us benefit from.

In the last six months I have pointed out to a half dozen individuals on various web forums that they can rid themselves of the offensive "turbine pox" in their AOPA periodicals, and in fact, they'll find that the majority of content in even the turbine version of the magazine is still related to small airplanes, albeit Bonanzas (last I heard those are still GA airplanes). But these folks argue that the magazines are all about jets...... Perhaps occasionally reading some of the proficiency articles, accident reports, and other content in these magazines could help make us all better and safer pilots.

Why is it that every time the name AOPA is mentioned on one of these web forums, some hero has to attack the organization for some perceived or imagined wrongs? Are we so narrow minded that we think AOPA/EAA/any other advocacy organization should devote ALL their resources and efforts to what one member thinks "we" should be focused on?

If you can find another organization that represents general aviation, in all its forms, as well or better than AOPA, please let me know, and I'll send them my membership dues as well.

We are a tiny minority, folks. AOPA membership last I heard was around 600,000 members. That won't even raise a blip on the radar of most politicians. But, it's the best voice we have, folks. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater with our chest thumping. Write an intelligent letter to AOPA President Fuller and EAA Chairman Pelton, and express your concerns.

But, getting your underwear in a knot over perceived discrimination is pointless and counterproductive.

And, by the way, if you'd read their magazines, both AOPA and EAA noted in recent editorials that they are still pressuring FAA to follow up on the huge response they got on the 3rd class medical issue. They haven't given up on that issue, and I doubt they will.

Your membership is what gives these organizations a voice. I for one will continue my membership. I hope those folks who own and operate turbine equipment do as well, and maybe donate a little extra to help us all continue to benefit from general aviation as we know it.

MTV

It is not your position on the issues under discussions that warrant an apology, Mike....
If your too important to delete and/ or apologize- for attacking someone personally about a position/opinion....
Well, your making a pretty big statement about yourself.

I'll crawl back in my cave now....
I'm outa position.
lc

It is not your position on the issues under discussions that warrant an apology, Mike....
If your too important to delete and/ or apologize- for attacking someone personally about a position/opinion....
Well, your making a pretty big statement about yourself.

I'll crawl back in my cave now....
I'm outa position.
lc

With or without ad hominem attacks, the fact is that we all need to stick together to accomplish very much. As individuals, we carry little weight; as a group of several hundred thousand, our voice is much louder. So while I disagree with some of the stances of both AOPA and EAA on various things, the fact is that we need them--or I should say, since I'm part of both of them, we need us.

I suspect that the next step in AOPA's activity will be to seek a federal court order to obtain what CBP has thus far failed to provide--and I suspect that even the well-heeled among us would not want to spend the bucks individually to do that. That's one significant benefit of being part of the organization--spreading the cost of litigation.

Will they succeed? I hope so. But I've been part of the legal system for too long to guess the results. If I could, everyone would just come to me, I'd tell them what to do, and they'd pay me for my guru-ness!

Cary

I kinda like reading about jets and turbines. My kid is going to buy us one when he gets out of engineering school. I need to be knowledgeable about which one to get. Then Thousands Standing Around can kiss my butt when I want to go on a trip!

The rise and fall of the Roman Empire? Are we are own enemies?

People must look up to pilots and owners if we are to continue in GA with any type Government support. Co- Leadership amongst our type of group ( that has had traditionally reaped the benefits and perks given to them by the public ) , is paramount. We need to lead each other in a respectable RATED G ( for general audiences ) manner. Or, yes agreeded, we will lose political respect or even worse become a target.

$00.02

A coalition of clubs would be nice to see. There are alot of people that belong to smaller clubs that feel left out, or maybe want to belong to only 1 or 2 clubs at most.

Bighorn wrote:A coalition of clubs would be nice to see.

Can't be done. Turf-wars and politics prevent those. Tried and failed.
Lots of salaries and benefits depend on the aviation association fragmentation in the U.S. of A.

8GCBC wrote:The rise and fall of the Roman Empire? Are we are own enemies?

We are. Our group hasn't realized that we depend on each other more than we wish to. Minorities usually realize this after a while, ours seems to be trucking on as usual. Those who think that this dependency is fully developed usually support general aviation associations, mainly because something is better than nothing. Still, something isn't always good enough to save the ship.

What associations need are actively involved members, not just money. What they need most is accountability along with transparency in their leadership and finances. Lobbying (as in its original sense) is proving increasingly insignificant in today's advocacy world as the fight is no longer fought the way it was fought 30 years ago.

Surprisingly, grassroots organizations are generally more successful/ effective. A large majority of pilots seem to be under the impression that sending money to an association and reading the magazine is sufficient to sustain this kind of flying, when in fact our enemies are lurking everywhere, capitalizing upon our weakest point, which is a fully developed flat-spin when it comes to how we treat each other as a community. Our fragmented group of associations are too slow and to ineffective to cause as much as a swirl. Our fragmented group of pilots prefers to fight each other, rather than for each other.

AOPA worldwide may have 600K members, but I'd dare say less than 5000 are actively involved and boots on the ground. Apathy is what kills us. Its all fun and giggles until one of us cries for help and learns that nobody is there to write letters, fill out comment forms or take action by attending a hearing. Associations do what its members ask them to do, members have the ultimate power when it comes to voting with the wallet, when all other other measures (such as bylaws) fail. To describe someone who refuses to burn their money on these clown theaters as an enemy of general aviation is grotesque and laughable, at best.

Mike, at the risk of getting another flood of PM's or warnings for daring to answer one of your godly posts critically, I would kindly ask you not look down on everyone around you. Being in disagreement with you is bad for business and bad for ones reputation (I know that from experience) but in the end, I would rather not fight a fellow pilot or call them an idiot/ full of shit. Your opinion and judgement carries a lot of weight with your followers and fan-clubs, but not everyone has to do it your way. Of course, whoever gets in your way and slapped for it becomes a persona non grata - but that's OK, nobody has ever read an apology from you, its just not your style.

I find it surprising that you would defend every single association with all its piles of dead bodies in their basements (which you know as much about as I do, if not more) yet choose to insult a fellow aviator for having an opinion. You do sit on quite a high horse (probably a result of age and self-perception) but not everybody feels a need to be hacked to pieces for speaking their minds on AOPA's latest money making scam. Defending associations which are not sticking up to their members/ nonmembers expectations is honorable and nice, but if those groups gave a shit, they'd communicate with their members themselves.

Neither the medical nor the CPB situation will be satisfactorily solved with polite letters and straw-man lures. AOPA has no weight in these matters, not since 2008 and probably not until 2016. The tail is wagging with the dog in this country, remind yourself of a glider pilot arrested and detained and interrogated as if he was a JRD under A.H. There is a flood of things going on against general aviation, I dare say 75% of the issues killing GA are happening secretly and without much ado. Too much polarization in the association world, too many slimy politics and power trips. I'd rather burn my money before sending a check and a proxy vote to people I don't even get to ask for board meeting minutes.

Seeing Fuller go is a positive event, I agree 100% with your sentiment that he is disconnected from the bread & butter member of AOPA, but he's just the head of a very large and very stinky fish. What worries me more than that, is the question what kind of figure will replace him. The salary will be well beyond $850.000/ year, almost as much as NRA's 4.5 million member president makes. NRA has presented the kind of advocacy I would have liked to see in our industry 10 years ago and continues to do so, quite effectively.

AOPA/ EAA/ SPA/ RAF/ Blah, blah, blah... member or not... we sink together.
Our current system is inefficient and crooked. Dysfunctional on the highest level and apparently beyond repair.
All we can do is work diligently on making it better and keeping communication positive and ongoing.
Lemons = Lemonade.

If we're crashing, I'd rather laugh and drink with my buddy than fight my fellow aviator all the way down about who's to blame.

Your right MTV, We should support AOPA .
Your full of it ? So what.
Who cares about our little feelings ? There are huge threats to our freedom.
We're whining that the band missed a note when they had an hour to live.
The Titanic band played until the end.
USA Gumn't was founded for our rights, now all Gumn't effort is lies for power and control.
Too may pilots support nothing. Our procrastinating and disarray forfeits more time and rights.
Go ahead call me what you want. Misspell your rant Kick me in the leg, It doesn't matter.
We have to say something. Most of us don't care to be politically correct.
Throw it out there. Be yourself before the Gumn't Software edits your post.
What's the 4th of July mean ? Deviates / Homo's in our face every day on the news ?
That serves as another diversion to distract what's really happening. Corrupt gumn't loves it.
happy day