Occasionally, on an auction site, there are aircraft offered for sale, that do not have any logbooks.
Usually, several years have gone by since it was flown last. The circumstances may have been that:

- a government agency has seized the plane and the previous owner refused to turn over or destroyed the logs in spite
OR
- the bank/court/descendants representing the former owner, don't know what/where dad/grandpa did with/kept the logs

If someone bought such an aircraft, how would they go about getting it back up & flying; both legally and practically?

Thanx, Dave.

I'm no expert, so. IMHO Get new books, get a fresh annual, make sure all the AD are up to date. I think you are good to go then.

Cheers...Rob

You won't recover the logs, but the FAA usually has a fair number of 337 associated with the aircraft available by mail on CD-ROM. This will often give you a ballpark idea of aircraft total time.

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Zane
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BluNosDav, is it a C reg or N reg

We’ve had a couple planes and engines with no logs fixed up by an IA that does whatever research is possible with the 337 history from the FAA and then estimates the times based on an inspection and starts a new log.

You better buy it right because until the airframe and/or engine with these estimated times is overhauled, the aircraft is worth significantly less.

Aryana wrote:

You better buy it right because until the airframe and/or engine with these estimated times is overhauled, the aircraft is worth significantly less.

You can do a zero time engine, prop, replace/upgrade all avionics but you cannot do a zero time air frame (pretty sure)

So I have a 56 182 with some cool upgrades probably worth 50 to 60 K. If I did not have the log books what would that plane now be worth.

qmdv wrote:

Aryana wrote:

You better buy it right because until the airframe and/or engine with these estimated times is overhauled, the aircraft is worth significantly less.

You can do a zero time engine, prop, replace/upgrade all avionics but you cannot do a zero time air frame (pretty sure)

So I have a 56 182 with some cool upgrades probably worth 50 to 60 K. If I did not have the log books what would that plane now be worth.

Your 56 182 without logs is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it...just like any other airplane that is missing logs and people are guessing how much time it has on it.

Note that I made no mention of what you think it’s worth or what you may or could ask as a selling price. The only thing that matters in terms of value is what it actually sells for to a buyer when it changes hands.

An airframe with extensive disassembly, restoration and overhaul (using approved data and parts) is worth more than one that hasn’t had that done when you don’t know how much time it has really flown because the logs are gone.

I don’t think you understand what’s being said when you mention zero timing items after I mentioned overhauls.

To make it simple for you, if you don’t know how much time is on something, a swag by a competent person is better than nothing, and a history of inspection and overhaul is better than the swag from a knowledgeable person.

Maple,
All of the sites that I've looked at so far, feature "vehicles" registered in the USA.
If you happen to know of any sites on the Canadian side, please pass them along.

Follow-up Question:
Would missing logbooks prohibit an aircraft being used in commercial operations?

Thanx again, Dave.

It depends. Certain types of commercial aviation activity requires certain maintenance on the aircraft used. I don’t know how you could legally do that without logs unless you spent a crap ton of cash getting everything vetted.

A bit of unsolicited advice from me is to pass on the airplane with no logs and buy the nicest airplane (with logs) that you can afford. It will be cheaper in the long run, especially if you intend on commercial operations.

If you aren’t an A&P/IA, it would be financial suicide to buy one without logs.

You might also look at it like this. It might be a fine aircraft but will never be worth what it would with books when it comes time to sell.

Because the original post was not asking about value or resale potential...

Have the aircraft inspected for annual. If the IA signs it off, you’re legal to fly. The IA will ensure everything is on order and what’s needed to be present will be present before he puts his signature. New logbook showing the annual, any related other checks (pitot static), weight and balance...standard stuff.

I don’t know of any other requirements to operate commercially unless the plane has life limited parts. TBO on the engine will be unknown without logs so you will need to overhaul it to fly commercially.

Logbooks are only required for one year after the work is performed.

Yeah, it’s a big unknown and everyone freaks out about missing log books and it’s value will be down but that wasn’t the question.

If you haven’t been through the process to get an aircraft without logs flying again, then you can’t appreciate the sage advice to buy it really cheap, David.

The OP asked about buying an aircraft that was sitting without logs and getting it flying again.

Buy it cheap. Really cheap. There can and most likely will be some expensive surprises.

We’ve purchased and sold 3 aircraft with zero logs. One of which was an import from Canada without an airworthiness certificate. Countless others with missing logs.

Yes, legally you’re not required to keep logs, but what how do you think it will affect what a potential buyer (like the OP) will pay if you decided to throw away all the logs older than a few years on the 170 you’re building?

This is a lesson best learned by going through the process if you doubt the facts I put forth.

Or you can go into it eyes wide open and err on the side of caution.

If you’re not an A&P/IA, don’t have money to burn, and aren’t an expert on airworthiness of the make/model you’re considering, have a big pile of cash at your side that you’re willing to let become a little one.

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My biggest concern would be AD compliance--
specifically re engine components.
As in "AD xxx complied with at major overhaul".
Most airframe AD's are easy to check compliance with, or do,
but with some engine AD's the engine must be disassembled to check.
And some are applicable based on engine time.
So you might wanna figure in the cost of an overhaul to CYA.

Thanx Everyone! As usual, very good information and advice.

My question about commercial use, was actually for the purpose of determining who I may be bidding against.
I wondered whether 135 operators might be interested in (or be prohibited from) purchasing such an aircraft?

Thanx, Dave.

hotrod180 wrote:My biggest concern would be AD compliance--
specifically re engine components.
As in "AD xxx complied with at major overhaul".
Most airframe AD's are easy to check compliance with, or do,
but with some engine AD's the engine must be disassembled to check.
And some are applicable based on engine time.
So you might wanna figure in the cost of an overhaul to CYA.

Overhaul facility (if you can figure out who it was) might have records.

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