Went to a Mt flying seminar.
Instructor said canyon turn:
Slow it down, 10 degress of flaps and 45 to 60 degree bank turn.
No Immelman, no chandelle, no aerobatics, no full throttle, no full flaps.
Rudder was not mentioned (top rudder better? worse?)

So went out and practiced it the way the instructor described it, its an easy, non extreme manuver, I think anyone can do it easily, and could be good theory if the pilots have never practiced a canyon turn he is stuck in a box canyon and can save him.

I was doing the turn at 60mph , important requirement to make the the turn tighter its slower speed I assume? too much bank,. then increases the stall speed.

But I have a feeling it can be made a lot tighter with the correct technique?

Anyone able and willing to find the old string of postings on this.

https://youtu.be/tnJZ1Yq9rr4


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I'll probably make a few points that repeat the old thread. It was before my time here, but has been discussed in many books and conversations.

I always imagined that if I had to make a short radius (canyon) turn, it would be because I'd jambed myself under a layer and between a few mountains. Pulling up into the cloud in a hammerhead or Imelman turn probably wouldn't end well for me, an it's not a manuever I've practiced enough to be comfortable. If I've got clearance below me, I'd probably bank hard, but not pull. I'd sacrifice some altitude to ensure that I didn't load the wing too heavy and end up in an accelerated stall, and result in a spin.

Sparky Imeson's book has a great discussion on this, and gets into the math to prove his techniques. You can calculate your turn radius given airspeed and angle of bank.

Got me!

wannabe wrote:Anyone able and willing to find the old string of postings on this.

Full flap chandell, then transition to an immmelmann half way through and add just enough throttle to keep 3~4 inches over the tree tops. Navigate off of stars during the highest G portion of the turn to avoid ground-reference disorientation....Dump flaps 3/4 of the way through to increase fuel efficiency...

That's about what I remember from the thread.

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... turns-4534


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Hammer - Are those the stars you see during high g maneouverness?

Most importantly you need at least 31" bush wheels, 35s are better. Best to have slats but a Sportsman Cuff will work too. MT prop, O-360 for 2 place and O-540 in a 4 place. There you go should be a piece of cake.

The hammerhead version is not recommend in a Maule.

Hammer wins this thread.


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motoadve,

Your somewhat close horizontal distance from the ridge downwind of the valley was good. That gave good distance to the ridge across the valley.

Hard airspeed and angle of bank numbers are only useful in a fully controlled situation. Canyon turnbacks usually become necessary when we have lost ridge lift or see a problem ahead. Now we HAVE to turn at the speed and angle of bank that will complete the turn prior to impact with the opposite ridge.

With just a few seconds planning, we can use energy management to trade too much speed (normal cruise and not Vy just to maintain altitude ) for altitude in a wings level zoom climb. This is not possible if near cloud base.

Once slow, we need to turn at whatever bank is necessary to miss the opposite ridge and bring the nose both around and down to the correct target : the lowest terrain around : the bottom of the valley. NO Back Pressure on the stick, NO load on the wing, NO stall horn. The pax will be upset. They may even puke. Give them the choices: puke or impact the opposite ridge.

Once the nose is down on the bottom of the valley, level the wings First and then pull up wings level.

In a pinch, the choice is to use horizontal space which often causes stall, the horn at least, or the same or greater amount of vertical space.

Practice energy management turns over the desert first. Or meet up with me 19 and 20 September in Reno just after the races.

I don't have the time now to give details, but having had to turn and dive out of a mountain cirque the other day due to a strong downdraft, I can attest to what Jim is saying above x10. No question about dropping the nose to unload the wing and to accelerate out of the down draft while turning and adding power, it was instinctive because of prior training. Staying longer slow and close would have left little margin to escape. Those rocks get LARGE pretty quick. Yes, we have glacial valleys in NV, but it is a barren waste land so just keep moving[emoji3].

BTW, the passenger did puke.

blackrock wrote:BTW, the passenger did puke.

Damn!

Motoadve,

Called away on "honey do " and didn't finish your question about top or bottom rudder.

In normal flying, which energy management turns are, we don't use those terms nor do we often use full deflection of the controls. It is not acrobatics. We use rudder in the direction of the desired bank sufficient to make the nose rate of movement appropriate for the angle of bank. Once any turn is initiated, the stick is relaxed allowing the nose to go down appropriate for the angle of bank : little in a shallow turn to lots in a steep turn. When the nose goes down, it doesn't hurt to slip or skid generally. In the canyon turn, or any turn to a near target, rudder must be used aggressively both to push the nose down and around to that target before hitting the opposite ridge/wall and to level the wings prior to pull up. So top rudder in the turn, a slip, is a deadly No No and top rudder to level the wings prior to pull up, a skid, is absolutely necessary.

Alternative steep banks, L and R, with the nose locked on target, (Dutch Rolls ) are a necessary prerequisite to energy management turns. Like in most precision flying, good rudder usage is the name of the game.

Blackjack,

Yes,it is very basic and obvious stuff. At least it is for those of us who can't, "leap tall buildings in a single bound." Excess engine thrust for climb is so puny up against God.

[quote="Terry"]

EZFlap wrote:

Terry wrote:The hammerhead version is not recommend in a Maule.

What version is recommended, by Maule or anyone else, when the width of the "box canyon" is narrower than the turn radius of the airplane?

Oh god...not again.