Yeah, cool video and fun to watch folks yank and bank. But that's what you use to keep from going up that canyon. Once nosed in there without realizing it, and already nose up and climbing for all you're worth... You're gonna be in trouble.

Gump

Well, with an old 150, I think I will just stay the hell out of box canyons!

Zzz wrote:

exodus wrote:If you let yourself to brain fart and get anywhere near a situation such as , narrow canyon, and for what ever reason Not recognized early that things are looking to go to shit and you let your AIRCRAFT SLOW DOWN NEAR Vs, you have no business being in the mountains in the first place. I bet you that most seasoned bush pilots on this forum, may have only ever got themselves into that predicament once in their early days. It's one situation you will not live long enough to repeat often.

I think everyone here knows that. What is being criticized is the optimism with which maneuvers like this are practiced, the false sense of preparation that may come from doing it in a planned and perfect simulation that can lead to people actually believing that a canyon hammerhead (classic thread) is a practical solution for a scenario that is likely never going to be as ideal as our fantasies.

Blu did a fine example of a minimum radius turn, and it was really fun to watch. Nothing wrong with practicing those, and it's fun to boot. I just don't see it as a practical emergency maneuver.

Exactly, and Blu never said that this was the way he thought we all should do canyon turns. Just one of the way he likes to do them. Those of us lucky enough to frequently see Blu fly realize that he has the skill set and the aircraft to pull this type of turn off safely. If I have to resort to that type of turn in a canyon, an accident has already happened.

an extra margin of speed is your friend

Not if you want a minimum radius turn. Enough speed, yes; extra speed, no. In a tight situation, it's better to be flying at the speed you already need to make that 180 degree turn, than to have to suddenly slow, overbank, drop full flaps, try to do a hammerhead or a wingover, or any of the other extreme things, etc., in order to extricate oneself from failing to use good judgment in the first place.

Cary

After this thread, I'll probably die trying to read my A-i while whipping shitties to see if I really was at 90.

Done tens of thousands in AgCats, Stearmans, Pawnee s, helicopters Etc. At end of any "run" pull up to climb (at cruise ) and start a shallow turn right as aircraft slows to say 10 mph over stall speed go left RUDDER with wings level and do the return going down to regaining your airspeed ,, notice NO Flaps or any other girations . Been there done that

exodus wrote:.....If you let yourself to brain fart and get anywhere near a situation such as , narrow canyon, and for what ever reason Not recognized early that things are looking to go to shit and you let your AIRCRAFT SLOW DOWN NEAR Vs, you have no business being in the mountains in the first place.....

I disagree (I think). If you're getting into a tight spot, it makes sense to slow down some to give you a little more time to see and react. Plus lower speed = tighter turning radius at the same bank angle. Just don't get behind the power curve. In other words, not true "slow flight" but more like observation or loitering or pattern speed.
Just like you wouldn't go bombing aong at full speed when you have a mile viz, don't do it into a tight spot where you might have to do some tricky maneuvering.

hotrod150 wrote:it makes sense to slow down some to give you a little more time to see and react. Plus lower speed = tighter turning radius at the same bank angle. Just don't get behind the power curve. In other words, not true "slow flight" but more like observation or loitering or pattern speed.

That's probably one of the best tips or strategies to backcountry flying, ever. "Thinking speed," or 10-20 degrees flaps plus a little power, can really make it easier on the pilot, as it slows down the rate at which stuff is happening. It makes it much easier to observe stuff on the ground, and to negotiate terrain, should you be down in it.

lesuther wrote:I used to practice in the w. colo area too...and I never found a huge difference in turn radii between turning at a casual 45 degrees and turning steeper if the maneuver was initiated at something close to a clean Vy (in a 182). The higher speed needed in the sustained steep turn just seemed to mostly cancel out the advantage. The lower bank angle gave a lot of airspeed to burn up to gain altitude with during the initial entry. The higher bank angle gave no extra airspeed to burn up.

I'd enter the maneuver over a landmark, and judge how well I was doing over a different one. It was hard to tell if I was any better off at all using a casual 45 degree bank or a steep turn...the difference was fairly small- perhaps a wingspan or two. This was while having zero altitude loss, with electric flaps, etc.

Funny you should say this. I used to fly a 182 with electric flaps and came to the very same conclusion in that plane.

To me the manual flaps make the differance. When you pop them in you get a nice pitch up and extra lift right as you need it.

Has anyone tried it in a 182, 185 with the manual flaps? I have been wondering if that would make it a more viable method in those planes?

hotrod150 wrote:

exodus wrote:.....If you let yourself to brain fart and get anywhere near a situation such as , narrow canyon, and for what ever reason Not recognized early that things are looking to go to shit and you let your AIRCRAFT SLOW DOWN NEAR Vs, you have no business being in the mountains in the first place.....

I disagree (I think). If you're getting into a tight spot, it makes sense to slow down some to give you a little more time to see and react. Plus lower speed = tighter turning radius at the same bank angle. Just don't get behind the power curve. In other words, not true "slow flight" but more like observation or loitering or pattern speed.
Just like you wouldn't go bombing aong at full speed when you have a mile viz, don't do it into a tight spot where you might have to do some tricky maneuvering.

I think, is right. If you read carefully I said Vs. As noted somewhere above, this discussion specifically was about the practical application of practiced small radius turn techniques in real emergency situations. In real life emergency situations that have been lethal, the pilot has waited too long, forgetting what "everyone should know", fly the airplane, be aware and maintain airspeed control. In that particular scenario, Gump sums it up. if it goes that far, low on space and airspeed then You have probably had it and your dead. So that part of the discussion is mute.

Second, if your practiced and competent and You are very familiar with your machine and your own limitations then the technique that is depicted in Blu's video is a valuable practical option for getting turned around in short order,( CAVEAT: Know thy airplanes capabilities) even when your staring at a canyon wall. and the weather in front of you is going to shit.

When I say extra speed is your friend, I don't mean extra speed over cruise. By the time things are starting to look bad in tight terrain, you have most likely slowed down while the brain is contemplating options and stirring that uncomfortable feeling in your gut, complemented by puckering in the part of the anatomy you sit on. The trick is to maintain your composure under duress and not get distracted by that feeling of impending doom, letting the speed settle to the bottom of the green arc. Carrying extra "friendly" speed above Vs is critical, especially in mountainous terrain where one of the reasons for a 180 might be turbulence. That is not where you want to be bobbling around near stall speed, especially in a turn.

I know I'm just stating the obvious, the things "we all know" it's just that every year planes go down and people get killed for just the reasons we are discussing. One thing to consider is that since this is an open forum, what is known to many, may not be to the some, that may be just started out and are contemplating their first XC mountain flight. With this understanding, the obvious cannot be over stated. I think Whee's comment about practicing what works for you in your own aircraft is the most constructive so far.

Airplanes and the people who fly them have many different capabilities. It is in our best interest to find the limitations of both and get out and practice regularly.

IMHO

If you fly for fun like most of us here do, I have a tough time figuring how your going to get in a situation where you need that turn.

When I fly around the Idaho mountains I fly the top half of the canyon as opposed to the bottom half. You then have lots of room to turn around, heck 100 MPH is no problem.

Now if the clouds are on the top of the mountains and I know EXACTLY where I am and have run the canyon before I'll run the canyon on the lower half. If it is to narrow to turn around at 60 MPH I don't FUCKING go there.

You want to fiddle fuck around in areas where you fuck up and have to do a 200' diameter 180* turn you deserve what you get. I know how much room I need to turn my plane around with the current wind. When I don't have the room I don't go there. If the wx is that crappy, hell I don't want to be flying any how. I got a camp fire and whiskey.

Tell me again how important it is to get the pop, diapers, cigarets, and beer to the village people. Tell me again why you risk your life to do this.

I was in the risk my life business. SOP give your life to save a person. To save property take very little risk.

G'Day

The slower you can fly the tighter you can turn. Flaps = Slower flight.

( referring to level turn in the horizontal plane only in this discussion )

Slowing down is key to tight turns!

OregonMaule wrote:IMHO

If you fly for fun like most of us here do, I have a tough time figuring how your going to get in a situation where you need that turn.

When I fly around the Idaho mountains I fly the top half of the canyon as opposed to the bottom half. You then have lots of room to turn around, heck 100 MPH is no problem.

Now if the clouds are on the top of the mountains and I know EXACTLY where I am and have run the canyon before I'll run the canyon on the lower half. If it is to narrow to turn around at 60 MPH I don't FUCKING go there.

You want to fiddle fuck around in areas where you fuck up and have to do a 200' diameter 180* turn you deserve what you get. I know how much room I need to turn my plane around with the current wind. When I don't have the room I don't go there. If the wx is that crappy, hell I don't want to be flying any how. I got a camp fire and whiskey.

Tell me again how important it is to get the pop, diapers, cigarets, and beer to the village people. Tell me again why you risk your life to do this.

I was in the risk my life business. SOP give your life to save a person. To save property take very little risk.

G'Day

That leads to the other important side of the equation. Human factors. You may be the best plane handler in the world, But it ain't worth a pinch of coon shit if your judgement stinks.

OregonMaule wrote:IMHO

If you fly for fun like most of us here do, I have a tough time figuring how your going to get in a situation where you need that turn.

When I fly around the Idaho mountains I fly the top half of the canyon as opposed to the bottom half. You then have lots of room to turn around, heck 100 MPH is no problem.

Now if the clouds are on the top of the mountains and I know EXACTLY where I am and have run the canyon before I'll run the canyon on the lower half. If it is to narrow to turn around at 60 MPH I don't FUCKING go there.

You want to fiddle fuck around in areas where you fuck up and have to do a 200' diameter 180* turn you deserve what you get. I know how much room I need to turn my plane around with the current wind. When I don't have the room I don't go there. If the wx is that crappy, hell I don't want to be flying any how. I got a camp fire and whiskey.

Tell me again how important it is to get the pop, diapers, cigarets, and beer to the village people. Tell me again why you risk your life to do this.

I was in the risk my life business. SOP give your life to save a person. To save property take very little risk.

G'Day

Some peoples fun are others madness!
Some times I like to fiddle fuck around where you have to make a turn in 200', That's how come I have HP and Flaps!
If you want to work, you fly!
Don't go there if you don't want to!, Don't bitch at me if I do.
I don't bungee jump, ride off cliffs with snow machines, or really like to drive down a 2 lane road at 55 mph, But I will skud run down till I have to land or climb (Love IT)
I'll fly up a canyon, and I'll fly down it. If I know where I'm at and sometimes when I don't.
My shoes, My plane, My choice!
I've been in the village with with a sick kid, man with a leg bone sticking out of the skin, baby turning blue, snow machine ski stuck in a guys gut! What do you do, stay there and do nothing. NOPE!
If you can do it and use it you do!!
Some do Some don't!
Go learn how to do this shit so if you ever have to you, you can! right side up or down, day, night, cold or wet, windy or calm, in the mountains or on the flats, Just fly!
Hell if you don't push the edge of the envelope, you'll never know where it is?
IMHO and $.02 You know how much either is worth!
GT
I gota get outa here soon, I just read this??

Personally there's no way in hell I'd go down a narrow valley/cannon without knowing exactly where it leads or at least know I'll be able to turn the aircraft round in the space available. That said, it is good fun flying along valleys with the sides towering way above you, so I fully appreciate why we do these things. If things are looking a bit dodgy, then I do favour slowing up a bit to give me time to consider the options. And as previously mentioned, the slower you are the tighter your radius of turn.

All this talk of slow flight and flaps. Flaps allow slower speed which allows a tighter turn but....You need to also consider energy. How many of our airplanes can maintain high angle of bank turns with the flaps out in level flight at high density altitudes. One might consider that it takes less energy to maintain a tight LEVEL turn clean than with flaps out. The last thing I would consider in this scenario would be pulling the flaps. I might get a quick nose bump then I would fall out of the sky. I would only pull flaps prior to impact.
This is all nonsense (as stated above) because if you get yourself into this mess you are all out of energy and ideas in the first place.

Attitude controls airspeed

power controls altitude

airspeed controls turning radius ( given bank angle )

Each envelop must be well contained before entering tight canyons.

M6RV6 wrote:

OregonMaule wrote:IMHO

If you fly for fun like most of us here do, I have a tough time figuring how your going to get in a situation where you need that turn.

When I fly around the Idaho mountains I fly the top half of the canyon as opposed to the bottom half. You then have lots of room to turn around, heck 100 MPH is no problem.

Now if the clouds are on the top of the mountains and I know EXACTLY where I am and have run the canyon before I'll run the canyon on the lower half. If it is to narrow to turn around at 60 MPH I don't FUCKING go there.

You want to fiddle fuck around in areas where you fuck up and have to do a 200' diameter 180* turn you deserve what you get. I know how much room I need to turn my plane around with the current wind. When I don't have the room I don't go there. If the wx is that crappy, hell I don't want to be flying any how. I got a camp fire and whiskey.

Tell me again how important it is to get the pop, diapers, cigarets, and beer to the village people. Tell me again why you risk your life to do this.

I was in the risk my life business. SOP give your life to save a person. To save property take very little risk.

G'Day

Some peoples fun are others madness!
Some times I like to fiddle fuck around where you have to make a turn in 200', That's how come I have HP and Flaps!
If you want to work, you fly!
Don't go there if you don't want to!, Don't bitch at me if I do.
I don't bungee jump, ride off cliffs with snow machines, or really like to drive down a 2 lane road at 55 mph, But I will skud run down till I have to land or climb (Love IT)
I'll fly up a canyon, and I'll fly down it. If I know where I'm at and sometimes when I don't.
My shoes, My plane, My choice!
I've been in the village with with a sick kid, man with a leg bone sticking out of the skin, baby turning blue, snow machine ski stuck in a guys gut! What do you do, stay there and do nothing. NOPE!
If you can do it and use it you do!!
Some do Some don't!
Go learn how to do this shit so if you ever have to you, you can! right side up or down, day, night, cold or wet, windy or calm, in the mountains or on the flats, Just fly!
Hell if you don't push the edge of the envelope, you'll never know where it is?
IMHO and $.02 You know how much either is worth!
GT
I gota get outa here soon, I just read this??

As Dirty Harry said "A man has got to know his limitations" Sounds like you know yours and I know mine. We are all good.

Take it for however relevant it is, but in rotary wing a 60* bank angle requires a 2x increase in mast torque to maintain altitude and airspeed. Like if you're cruising at 65% mast torque it would take you 130% to maintain alt and a/s.

I'm not sure how that corresponds to % power in a fixed wing, but I'm sure the additional power requirement is significant if you're attempting to maintain alt and a/s.

I've used techniques of a/s for alt and also the other way around when flying in tight valleys in Afghanistan and after being surprised by wires scud running in Iraq. (They work but it's nice to have the added safety measure of spinning blades. Even when conditions prevent OGE hover it still makes very slow controlled flight possible.)

But I agree with most of the points up here. Specifically with staying out of the situation if you're unsure and not required to be in it, but also with flying your aircraft and knowing its and (more importantly) your limits. In my observations, making a fast decision about a potentially bad situation more often than not leads to a safer outcome than making a slow decision about a really bad situation.

I think we should clarify what people mean (i hope) when they are advising minimum air speed in a canyon.

In my mind that doesn't mean if your plane stalls at 45 with the flaps out that you tool along at 50-55

I think you will want to be at at least 80-90.

hears why

All canyons get wider as you climb and they all have a top.
If you have some extra speed (not cruise speed but at least twice stall speed) you can often either zoom climb right out or at least get high enough to be where the canyon is quite a bit wider.

Making a tight 180 is not the only danger in a canyon. A big one is downdrafts and mechanical turbulence off the cliffs.
Having some extra speed gives you some reserve to get through the down draft and extra control authority to handle the turbulence.

Once you get slow and close to the ground you really have limited options.