I am curious about the ability of an owner to strip out non-essential equipment/seats/paneling from a certified airplane without an A&P or approval. Is this possible, or must everything stay as is?

What can you take out with an A&P signing off?
What can you take out without?
Do you need to redo w&b for any change whatsoever?

For instance, on this site there is a great article on a pacer in the backcountry and the author states that the empty weight is 100lbs less than the advertised. How does someone go about achieving this? (unfortunately there are no pictures in the article of the pacer's interior.

I hate to feel like I need to be spoon-fed this information but I am curious about how this works for certified birds, it would be great to have a jumping off point for knowing how to do this and stay within the regs.

Lots of "stuff" such as interior panels, upholstery, rear seats, headliner, etc are non structural and a non mechanic can remove them. Any "equipment" such as old radios, instruments, etc should be removed and logged by a mechanic.

Any weight that is removed beyond "negligible" has to be entered into the aircraft's weight and balance, which must be logged by a mechanic.

MTV

If you take the back seats out periodically for camping/bicycles or whatever, do you need to carry a separate weight and balance sheet for this?

Check out bigrennas blog:

http://bushwagoneast.com/category/interior/

Seat removal is an often debated subject when it comes to who can do it and return the aircraft to service.
Some argue that the aircraft was certified with 4 seats (for example) so removing the rear seat modifies the type certificate and requires a 337.

Can an owner calculate a new weight and balance after removing or adding equipment?

If you remove the rear seat and it weighed 30 pounds, does that mean you can now carry 30 pounds more baggage back there (contrary to the 120 pound limit on the placard)? Wouldn't that mean the placard needs updating? How do you get approval to change the placard from 120 pounds to 150 pounds?

Owner maintenance says you can replace upholstery but is that the same as remove and return to service.

It's always best to get the opinion of the person doing your annuals as their opinion will have much more of an impact than folks online.


Begging forgiveness may be easier than asking permission.

The easy way is to do a weight and balance without the seat in place. Then treat it as any other type of cargo for W&B purposes. Logbook entry if you feel the need.
DENNY

As mentioned whatever the IA wants is a good place to start
DENNY

I recommend you ask your IA this question, at your annual he is the one that will be deciding what interpretation he is comfortable with and that's what maters.
Find an IA that will work with you, he can make log book entries and up date your W&B as you do the work. And then you sail through the next annual.
If you want to read the actual list of owner maintenance approved items it is AC 43.12a.

Bagarre wrote:Seat removal is an often debated subject when it comes to who can do it and return the aircraft to service.
Some argue that the aircraft was certified with 4 seats (for example) so removing the rear seat modifies the type certificate and requires a 337.

Can an owner calculate a new weight and balance after removing or adding equipment?

If you remove the rear seat and it weighed 30 pounds, does that mean you can now carry 30 pounds more baggage back there (contrary to the 120 pound limit on the placard)? Wouldn't that mean the placard needs updating? How do you get approval to change the placard from 120 pounds to 150 pounds?

Owner maintenance says you can replace upholstery but is that the same as remove and return to service.

It's always best to get the opinion of the person doing your annuals as their opinion will have much more of an impact than folks online.


Begging forgiveness may be easier than asking permission.

"If you remove the rear seat and it weighed 30 pounds, does that mean you can now carry 30 pounds more baggage back there (contrary to the 120 pound limit on the placard)? Wouldn't that mean the placard needs updating? How do you get approval to change the placard from 120 pounds to 150 pounds?"

NO. If you remove the rear seat you CANNOT put the extra 30 pounds into the baggage compartment. The removed seat was never in the baggage compartment. The baggage compartment placard is still valid for 120 pounds in the baggage compartment.

c170pete wrote:NO. If you remove the rear seat you CANNOT put the extra 30 pounds into the baggage compartment. The removed seat was never in the baggage compartment. The baggage compartment placard is still valid for 120 pounds in the baggage compartment.

Probably best to err on the side of obeying all placards and loading instructions from your AFM or POH, but all things being equal, if the CG works out to be within the limits, what's the difference? 30 pounds at the rear seat station in a 4-seat Cessna (~ 55") has the equivalent moment of 17 lbs of stuff loaded at the hat rack baggage station (~95").

CFOT wrote:If you take the back seats out periodically for camping/bicycles or whatever, do you need to carry a separate weight and balance sheet for this?

Work a C206/207/208, whatever... You'll be changing seat configurations 5-10-15 times a day. And your manifest W&B will reflect how you're set up each leg of a trip.

On my own airplanes (Cessnas) I kept a laminated W&B sheet in the seatback, Seat Schedule A (back seat in) or Schedule B (back seat out), with the math done, and signed by my IA.

Of course no one ever asked to look at it all the years I did them.

Gump

I had 6 W&B sheets for my 170, one for each configuration: 2 seats, 3 seats, 4 seats, with bushwheels or on 8.00s.

c170pete wrote:
"NO. If you remove the rear seat you CANNOT put the extra 30 pounds into the baggage compartment. The removed seat was never in the baggage compartment. The baggage compartment placard is still valid for 120 pounds in the baggage compartment."

You should be able to put 30 lbs. of cargo where the seat used to be and have no trouble. If I am not mistaken a weekend camping trip supply of whiskey is about 30 lbs. Canadian size bottles of course.

I'm glad nobody is advocating just removing stuff that doesn't accomplish anything for your current trip (like a back seat) and then loading up gear based on experience, without weighing it, or measuring the datum. Because that won't work...gotta put it on paper if you want it to work.

Never! [emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Zzz wrote: all things being equal, if the CG works out to be within the limits, what's the difference? 30 pounds at the rear seat station in a 4-seat Cessna (~ 55") has the equivalent moment of 17 lbs of stuff loaded at the hat rack baggage station (~95").

At that point you're dealing with structural loads and not just CG.
John

I have the Atlee Dodge STC for jump seats. That means I have three W&B: Both jump seats IN; One jump seat IN: Both jump seats OUT. The difference is about 5 pounds per seat. With both jump seats IN, I'm still 10 pounds less than with the bench seat.

If I didn't have the jump seat STC, and decided to remove/replace my bench seat I'd save 20 pounds (not "negligible") so would have to carry two weight and balance sheets.

c170pete wrote:NO. If you remove the rear seat you CANNOT put the extra 30 pounds into the baggage compartment. The removed seat was never in the baggage compartment. The baggage compartment placard is still valid for 120 pounds in the baggage compartment.

If you've obtained a properly completed W&B for the aircraft minus the rear bench seat the loading problem is a bit more complicated than just adding to the baggage compartment capacity. The baggage compartment has a specific average arm, and so does the rear seat of the aircraft. It's a simple problem to set up a W&B spreadsheet to calculate the allowable weight at the rear seat (now removed) station, which would be calculated separately from your baggage compartment limits. As suggested by others, discuss it with an IA or mechanic, or talk to the FSDO GA maintenance inspector. It's probably not going to be viewed as a major alteration (no 337 should be necessary), but because of the W&B arms you still have to pay close attention to what (and WHERE) you stuff your valued items in the back, you know... how much weight is at each station, etc. Sticking the hind quarters of that moose in your 120 pound limited baggage compartment station probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Bagarre wrote:Seat removal is an often debated subject when it comes to who can do it and return the aircraft to service.
Some argue that the aircraft was certified with 4 seats (for example) so removing the rear seat modifies the type certificate and requires a 337.

Can an owner calculate a new weight and balance after removing or adding equipment?.

Seat removal and installation is generally no big deal, but does require seperate weight and balance certificates, one for each configuration, as noted by others.

Hell, the FAA even backed off their threat to not allow part 135 pilots in Alaska install and remove seats. One of the dumbest things the FAA ever proposed.

An aircraft should have a current equipment list. If seats are removable, the equipment list should show them as optional, which takes care of your point re: seats being "required equipment". Other than the pilot seat, I doubt many aircraft seats are considered required equipment.

As to the owner calculating a new weight and balance after removing or installing seats, the PILOT in command is required to calculate a weight and balance (and there are several manners this can be accomplished) prior to each flight.

A mechanic with airframe privileges may prepare a weight certificate for each configuration, and sign them. The appropriate certificate must be in the aircraft for thae current configuration. I've flown airplanes with a half dozen weight certificates: wheels, skis, floats, big tires, and several seat configurations.

MTV

mtv wrote:


As to the owner calculating a new weight and balance after removing or installing seats, the PILOT in command is required to calculate a weight and balance (and there are several manners this can be accomplished) prior to each flight.



MTV

Our 182 POH has W&B diagrams for both configurations and says the seats can be removed to place baggage in the rear cabin area. Weight and arm are provided in the equipment list, so it is easy enough to calculate a new CG for each flight. I always figured that was a green light.

The rear seats weight and arm is in the equipment list, and the seats are listed as standard, but not required for FAA certification.