I am so glad that I have never done any of these really stupid things:

Listen and talk on radio 2 but think that I'm on radio 1.
Turn volume down.
Turn radio off.
Make a position report over the wrong landmark.
Tell someone that I have "traffic in sight" when I really have a different aircraft in sight.

I'm glad I'm perfect and haven't done any of these things.....potentially more than once. But, just in case I'm FOS, I have ADS-B out installed in my plane. I hope you all take advantage of the technology and utilize ADS-B in so that when I tell you that I'm over "Rocky Point", you will know that I'm actually over "Sunshine Ridge" and not always the perfect human I think I am.

One of the primary reasons I dislike when pilots vomit out their N-number when out flying around is that when someone says "Cessna 2???? is 10 miles south at 3000 feet" and I'm in the same area at the same altitude, sometimes I want to talk with them briefly but cannot recall the number because it was blurted out so fast. It was basically useless to me to have an N-number floating around out there. Even when I hear it multiple times, I cannot remember it. Again, I'm not the perfect human. But I can remember "yellow cub" or "red and white Stinson". And I know what I'm looking for.

Be safe out there. Remember to keep your eyes outside. It's still hard but definitely easier to spot traffic when you know what direction and angle to look. Hint, ADS-B Out/In is amazing.

I have a fair amount of experience with ADS-B in and out in pretty busy airspace with a LOT of flight training going on. In my opinion, ADS-B is very much a mixed blessing, for several reasons.

It is very easy to forget that not everyone out there is equipped like your aircraft. No electric aircraft, and even after 2020, there are going to be a LOT of aircraft NOT equipped with ADS-B. Remember that the rule only requires ADS-B out in A, B, C airspace and above 10,000 in E airspace. That leaves a LOT of airspace (actually the majority of vfr airspace in North America) without the ADS-B requirement.

The U.S. military has no plans to install ADS-B in their aircraft. Please re-read that. Then think about flying through or around MOA airspace.....reliant on ADS-B for traffic...

It is also VERY easy to spend a lot of time in two modes: 1) Staring at the MFD trying to locate an aircraft that just called on the screen. 2) Spending an inordinate amount of time trying to visually locate an airplane you've seen on the MFD, but can't find, and which is not a threat. I've done both....lots of heads down...remember, you see a target on the screen, now you need to READ the altitude hack to determine if the plane is a factor. That takes time....not a lot of time, but....and, I've caught myself doing all of this.

Finally, you are constantly switching your vision from near to far targets. Your eyes accommodate slower than most people realize, and that rate of accommodation slows as we grow older. So, stare at the screen for a while, read that itty bitty altitude hack, then look up to try to find the target. Etc.

It's not an issue for me....I don't have an electrical system. But, I've seen enough pilots flying with ADS-B to worry me as to the safety of flying around any kind of busy airspace in future.

MTV

If that student was a little loaded up, the brain naturally off loads what it thinks is unimportant. Listening to the radio and visual scanning probably dropped out due to concentrating on speed, configuration, pattern spacing, checklists, listening to the CFI etc.

Sometimes called target fixation. While fighting F16s in the F4, we killed the F16 wingman with a pair of radar missiles. In the debrief, he swore our shots were invalid. He never heard or saw us on his radar warning receiver. He was a bit embarrassed when we reviewed his HUD tape. The RWR was by far the loudest thing on his tape. He couldn't understand why he never heard it. He was too fixated on killing my Leader and never heard the RWR.

Keep you head outside.

Jake

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

C130jake wrote:If that student was a little loaded up, the brain naturally off loads what it thinks is unimportant. Listening to the radio and visual scanning probably dropped out due to concentrating on speed, configuration, pattern spacing, checklists, listening to the CFI etc.

Sometimes called target fixation. While fighting F16s in the F4, we killed the F16 wingman with a pair of radar missiles. In the debrief, he swore our shots were invalid. He never heard or saw us on his radar warning receiver. He was a bit embarrassed when we reviewed his HUD tape. The RWR was by far the loudest thing on his tape. He couldn't understand why he never heard it. He was too fixated on killing my Leader and never heard the RWR.

Keep you head outside.

Jake

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

For that same reason, the vast majority of gear-up landings occur in spite of a very loud gear warning horn blaring in the pilot's ear. It's amazing how our minds can block out things we should hear or see, because we're concentrating on something else instead.

Cary

Some very valid points made in this thread. It seems that ADS-B in & out should be taken as just another tool to assist us in situational awareness and not to be taken as the cure all for traffic avoidance.

It's a big sky out there and mid-air meetings are extremely rare but unlike a botched landing, second chances from mid-air collisions are even more rare.

I also ride motorcycles a lot and in my part of the country the main threat to your health on a MC is not running into a vehicle, but rather having close encounters of the third kind with a "deer". We do everything we can to avoid meeting up with a deer but it is always the one you don't ever see that gets you. I have no doubt that I have had a few near misses with deer that I am unaware of. They don't care what is coming down the road. When they decide to jump across, they jump across. I suspect that quite a few of us have had near misses in airplanes that we have no idea how close we came to grief because neither pilots ever knew the other was there.

I think ADS-B IN&OUT is a good thing and I will be equipping soon. It will be used as just another "tool", not the end all. I want to have a "better" chance of becoming aware of that one that I will never see otherwise.

In addition to keeping a high vigilance near the traffic pattern we have certain corridors here that have high VFR traffic that require extra vigilance. When the sky looks empty with no radio chatter, I ALWAYS assume..."the enemy is out there and I aim to find him." I also will make occasional short turns to lift a wing not only for increased visibility but even more to expose myself to that plane that might be coming directly at me that is an unmoving speck. I may not see him, but if I can facilitate him seeing me, problem solved. There have been a number of times that I have only visually picked up another plane just when that plane has initiated a banking turn exposing their wing to me.

Be safe, and always remember....they're out there.

It would interest me how crop duster and pipeline patrol midair collisions compare to higher flying aircraft. I have a hard time wording requests to Google.

Towers, buildings , and terrain above us is soo much easier to see than things below us. Difficulty seeing what is below us is due to ground clutter and is especially true of aircraft.

The surest way to avoid other aircraft at an uncontrolled airport is to approach it well below pattern altitude. I realize that would not be true if everyone approached from well below pattern altitude. They won't. I am not saying what would be safest from that point on to landing. I found giving way and landing after all other traffic to be quite safe.

contactflying wrote: I found giving way and landing after all other traffic to be quite safe.

I find that pretty much my standard practice down here.

I listen to CTAF from a looooong ways out to visualize the swarm of bees coming and going, find an out of the entry/exit points place to loiter until clear of the 747 pattern flyers, then climb up close ( ) to pattern altitude and get in and on the ground ASAP.

There's a whole lot of rudeness out there being flown, and being taught, and the concept of pilots cooperating for a smooth flow in and out of an uncontrolled airport is fast becoming a lost art.

Gump

Cary wrote:Been there, done that, on the close call. Glad yours was just a scare and not worse, Bd. A few years ago, I was on a left downwind for what was then 9 at Greeley, when a Skylane shooting a practice ILS approach to 34 chose to go missed at exactly TPA, 800' AGL. He passed so close in front of me that I could see the rivets in the side of the Skylane, maybe 20-25' at most. I had announced my positions on the 45 to downwind and again on downwind; he had last announced his position at BUFFS (the outer marker) outbound, before commencing his procedure turn and did not announce either procedure turn inbound or BUFFS inbound. He was not running landing lights; I was. I was at the correct TPA, so that if he'd done a proper missed nearer to DA/DH, he would have been well below me. To say I was shaken is inadequate.

Now that I have ADS-B In and Out, I'm hearing more traffic announced that I still don't see, even when I see it on the iPad. Either the "Big Sky" is getting smaller, or it's always been this way and I just didn't see it, even using proper scanning techniques. The ones I do see more often are well lit, often with flashing landing lights, strobes, etc.

We can reduce the problems associated with "see and avoid" by lighting up our airplanes as much as possible to be seen, and by using proper scanning techniques to see others. We can enhance "see and avoid" with ADS-B Out installations. For myself, my airplane has Pulselites for both the landing and taxi lights, which I turn on within about 10 miles of any airport traffic area and whenever ATC calls traffic, plus I always run my strobes, both wingtip and tail (the tail strobe comes on with the master). I now have ADS-B Out, which of course comes on with the avionics master.

Fortunately, the risks of mid-airs are pretty small, statistically speaking, compared to LOC incidents associated with landing and taking off. But anything we as pilots and owners can do to minimize all of the risks, even the smaller ones, should be done.

Cary

Cary,

Good points on being lit up, I agree. One comment I would add, turn on those Pulse lights and in VFR conditions NEVER (ok, almost never) turn them off. Why not leave them on all the time? Burn em out? Then get LED's and don't worry about burning them out. Our policy at work is on below 18,000', if it works for airliners why not GA. Turn em on! Ok, off soap box...

Kurt

PS, what Squash said about ADSB was spot on!

G44 wrote:

Cary wrote:Been there, done that, on the close call. Glad yours was just a scare and not worse, Bd. A few years ago, I was on a left downwind for what was then 9 at Greeley, when a Skylane shooting a practice ILS approach to 34 chose to go missed at exactly TPA, 800' AGL. He passed so close in front of me that I could see the rivets in the side of the Skylane, maybe 20-25' at most. I had announced my positions on the 45 to downwind and again on downwind; he had last announced his position at BUFFS (the outer marker) outbound, before commencing his procedure turn and did not announce either procedure turn inbound or BUFFS inbound. He was not running landing lights; I was. I was at the correct TPA, so that if he'd done a proper missed nearer to DA/DH, he would have been well below me. To say I was shaken is inadequate.

Now that I have ADS-B In and Out, I'm hearing more traffic announced that I still don't see, even when I see it on the iPad. Either the "Big Sky" is getting smaller, or it's always been this way and I just didn't see it, even using proper scanning techniques. The ones I do see more often are well lit, often with flashing landing lights, strobes, etc.

We can reduce the problems associated with "see and avoid" by lighting up our airplanes as much as possible to be seen, and by using proper scanning techniques to see others. We can enhance "see and avoid" with ADS-B Out installations. For myself, my airplane has Pulselites for both the landing and taxi lights, which I turn on within about 10 miles of any airport traffic area and whenever ATC calls traffic, plus I always run my strobes, both wingtip and tail (the tail strobe comes on with the master). I now have ADS-B Out, which of course comes on with the avionics master.

Fortunately, the risks of mid-airs are pretty small, statistically speaking, compared to LOC incidents associated with landing and taking off. But anything we as pilots and owners can do to minimize all of the risks, even the smaller ones, should be done.

Cary

Cary,

Good points on being lit up, I agree. One comment I would add, turn on those Pulse lights and in VFR conditions NEVER (ok, almost never) turn them off. Why not leave them on all the time? Burn em out? Then get LED's and don't worry about burning them out. Our policy at work is on below 18,000', if it works for airliners why not GA. Turn em on! Ok, off soap box...

Kurt

PS, what Squash said about ADSB was spot on!

I could leave them on--they're HIDs, so they won't burn out as readily as incandescents. But their power supplies generate a clicking sound over the radios, which quite honestly gets pretty annoying after awhile. It's not really loud, just loud enough to hear. That's why I turn them off when more than 10 miles away from any airport and after ATC tells me "traffic no factor" (the traffic I never saw anyway ).

Cary

contactflying wrote:It would interest me how crop duster and pipeline patrol midair collisions compare to higher flying aircraft. I have a hard time wording requests to Google.

Towers, buildings , and terrain above us is soo much easier to see than things below us. Difficulty seeing what is below us is due to ground clutter and is especially true of aircraft.

The surest way to avoid other aircraft at an uncontrolled airport is to approach it well below pattern altitude. I realize that would not be true if everyone approached from well below pattern altitude. They won't. I am not saying what would be safest from that point on to landing. I found giving way and landing after all other traffic to be quite safe.

The biggest problem we have in the low-flying helo world is pipeline guys. Ag is #2 behind them.

We all stay (very) low for various reasons, and mostly there's no other traffic down there, so we all might not communicate as well as we ought to.

Part of that is by circumstance: I wouldn't expect an ag guy to call his every turn while he's dusting a field, and I wouldn't expect a helo guy crossing fields out in the country to call each field being crossed. And maybe it's the new generation of pipeline pilots, but it seems that new pipeline aircraft were ordered without the 2-way radio option. Either way, of all my close calls, most have been with pipeline aircraft and a fair number with ag aircraft.

Anyways, even where you think you're most safe, keep your eyes peeled.

CamTom12 wrote:
The biggest problem we have in the low-flying helo world is pipeline guys. Ag is #2 behind them.

We all stay (very) low for various reasons, and mostly there's no other traffic down there, so we all might not communicate as well as we ought to.

Part of that is by circumstance: I wouldn't expect an ag guy to call his every turn while he's dusting a field, and I wouldn't expect a helo guy crossing fields out in the country to call each field being crossed. And maybe it's the new generation of pipeline pilots, but it seems that new pipeline aircraft were ordered without the 2-way radio option. Either way, of all my close calls, most have been with pipeline aircraft and a fair number with ag aircraft.

Anyways, even where you think you're most safe, keep your eyes peeled.

Ironically, my closest calls have been with the Navy King Air Trainers, my ag pilot buddies say the same thing. I'm all for our guys getting the best training possible, but when you're flying as a gaggle of 4 at 300' AGL outside of an MOA, not on an MTR, in the middle of farming country, you have to expect some other traffic will be out there. One guy was pulling out of a field hot and heavy, only to see nothing but King Air's filling his windshield. All he could do was hit the smoke and pray they reacted, which they did in the nick of time and peeled around him, close enough to pick out rivets on the planes. He called down to Corpus and had a good talk with an instructor, those flights seem to have been cut back now, I see them once every few weeks now instead of almost daily.

And pipeliners, they're just a different breed. When you throw them in with us ga guys, crop dusters, helos inspecting powerlines, offshore helos, and military trainers, it can be a real hairball down here sometimes.

Yes. Always look. Just less crowded than higher. Also, all down low expect to have to maneuver aggressively from time to time and usually don't get fussy about it.

I have had several close calls like the one in the OP.
When I started gliding lessons, I was about 11 years old and I didn't have prescription glasses yet. You can "see" where that leads. My instructor apparently couldn't see the oncoming Lake LA4-200 from behind my big goober hat. I pushed the nose down and steered right, narrowly avoiding the brown and tan buccaneer who's pilot was wearing a dull orange baseball cap, holding up something that looked like a sectional chart. I got glasses shortly thereafter. That close call was entirely my fault.

A more recent one took place a couple years ago in a 150. I was trying out the plane because I haven't flown many 150s before and I wanted to see if I liked it. It was smaller, slower, and more cumbersome than I was used to, but I had a good time. I was probably about 700-900' below a 4000' stratus overcast, VFR, with a person who was highly familiar with the 150. As I rolled out of a turn, an unannounced piper cherokee barreled out of the clouds, straight at me, and proceeded to call into the airport all VFR n stuff. Please - ALWAYS obey VFR cloud clearance rules. If I had been closer to those clouds, I may not be telling you this story. Maybe I shouldn't have been goofing around in a 150 that day, maybe I was closer to the clouds than my altimeter and eyes estimated, I don't know. But I've always been more cautious around clouds since that day.

New twist on an old thread:

Six months after getting ADS-B IN on my iPad in the cockpit via a friend’s Stratux, I’m a believer in the value of having this technology. It’s not 100% (because I don’t have ADS-B OUT), but ADS-B IN is a major supplement and upgrade on the Mark I Eyeball. It’s not without its downsides, though.

One of the more interesting and disturbing incidents happened on the way into Smiley Creek, Idaho a couple of weeks ago. We were at 11,500’, crossing over the mountains from the Mountain Home area to Smiley when a target appeared on the iPad at our 6 o’clock at our altitude heading the same direction.

I watched the traffic on the iPad as he closed in on us at an alarming rate. The tag on the iPad display had his tail number, so I called him in the blind on 122.9 with a position report and asked him if he had us in sight. No reply. About the time the yellow target turned red on the iPad, I banked hard to the right. A few seconds later, a low wing that looked like a single engine turboprop zorched by us, then turned east towards Hailey. By the time I had eyes on him, he was moving away fast, and I couldn’t tell how close he had actually come to us. A few seconds later, he turned north, descended and did a loop over Alturas lake before heading south again. If I hadn’t had ADS-B IN, I wouldn’t have seen him coming, and would not have taken evasive action.

Because he was maneuvering and did a tour after passing us, my speculation/conclusion is that he was on a joyride, had sophisticated equipment on board including ADS-B that showed us as a target, and decided to jump us for fun. It might have been fun for him, but it wasn’t for me or my family. I suspected as much at the time, but decided to take evasive action because I couldn’t be sure he wasn’t heads-down and about to ram us. If he was messing with us, then the evasive action I took could have been deadly, too.

Trying to intercept or form up on another airplane without consent, proper communication and briefing should be the definition of Careless and Reckless. I’ve read of at least two midair fatal accidents caused by this kind of behavior. I’m posting this here so that others will know that technology enables this kind of thing, and so any misguided souls who think it’s cool to do an impromptu airshow with unwilling participants will think twice before trying it. In the stress of the moment, I didn't think to copy down his tail number from the display so I could turn him in. Next time, I will.


CAVU

CAVU wrote:.....the evasive action I took could have been deadly, too.....

This is something to keep in mind.
I've turned out of a traffic pattern when someone was reporting what sounded like a conflicting position / action and I couldn't spot them.
But in hindsight, probably the best thing to do in that situation is to just fly straight ahead-
rather than taking a chance on turning / climbing right into the unseen but nearby traffic.

jumping on the bandwagon... ha! My favorite one was being down in the trees over a fairly narrow river and suddenly the ceiling was put on the hallway by a C-130 belly. I can still see the big red rotating beacon overhead.
Other visceral remembrances include going into OSH a few times, and then at least 3 yikes in my old days at FCM.
Night pattern and coming up on a SLOW Citabria with minimal lighting on downwind. Where did he come from!?
Six or so airplanes on final to 27 left, follow the Baron...hey, that's a Bonanza! where's the Baron!??
and the best was the tower controller's voice getting higher and higher and more tense telling a Cherokee that was coming up behind me in the Cub that I was at his 12 o'clock!! I finally couldn't stand it any longer and dove for the deck, don't know if that was the right move or not.

It's really hard to know what to do when someone's showing on the iPad at your 6 o'clock, same altitude, and you don't know if he sees you--and you can't see him for whatever reason, but mostly that God didn't put eyes in the back of heads. That was exactly my scenario yesterday. I had just left Fort Collins/Loveland (KFNL) where the student helicopter traffic was like the local beehive, along with quite a bit of fixed wing traffic. As I took off on 15, which everyone was using because the wind was from the south, a "furrin" helicopter announced that he was on final for 33--apparently paying no attention that 15 was the "active" runway--yeah, he was legal (there is no "active" at a non-towered airport), but stupid. Had I not turned out as soon as I saw him, I wouldn't be writing this, because obviously he was concentrating on either shooting the ILS or just coming in to land, but not on oncoming traffic (and yeah, I did announce departing on 15).

So I was super happy to go back to Greeley (KGXY), anticipating a more relaxing environment. I climbed up over the buzzing bee student helicopter traffic, which seemed to be congregating along I-25 which is just east of KFNL, leveling off at 7000'. The "active" at KGXY appeared to vacillate between 35 and 10, mostly 10, so I decided to fly north of the airport and past it to the east and do a right descending turn to a 45 to downwind to 10. From 7000' to 5500' (TPA), I let the speed build up, and as I lined up on the 45 to downwind at 3 miles out, a Skylane called in to say that he was on the 45 to downwind, 3 miles out, also!

But because both of us have ADS-B Out, I could see his tail number on my iPad, and he was actually about a quarter mile behind me, and 200' below. My guess is that he "saw" me on his iPad or on his ES transponder, as I'd seen him. I announced that I was (by then) 2 1/2 miles out on the 45 to downwind. I kept up my speed, as obviously a Skylane is capable of going faster than my airplane. When I turned downwind, I announced that I was on downwind, and the Skylane pilot announced that he was on the 45 "with downwind traffic in sight". Whew! Now I was much more comfortable--he was less likely to run me down, as I slowed down on downwind. For courtesy, I made a short approach anyway, clearing the runway just after he announced turning final.

Now let's imagine how this would have played out, had neither of us had ADS-B Out. Neither of us would have seen each other. When he called in at what appeared to be the same place I was, we would have had to have some conversation about where each other was. Or perhaps one or the other of us or maybe both of us would have had to break off our approaches, for safety.

So yeah, technology is a wonderful thing, and perhaps as we all get more accustomed to using it, it will reduce the concerns about the "big sky" not being quite so big after all. The thing we have to be careful about is relying on it too much, and spending too much time looking at screens instead of out the windshield. Hearing the verbal traffic announcements from the ES transponder and Foreflight/Stratus 2/iPad combination aids in that, but it's still a pilot responsibility.

Cary

Complete separation of helicopter from fixed wing works best but separate patterns and altitude works well when both are using the same field. Dempsey Army Airfield had the world's most traffic during the Vietnam War. The daisy chain was a bit comical but worked. The idea of training helicopter students as if they were airline students is dangerous.

Sorta/kinda the same problem..... pilots shooting GPS approaches to non-towered airports on clear days, usually with 3 or 4 planes in the pattern and a couple waiting to take off. Case in point, KPLU........................... I haven't looked up the NTSB report yet, but I'd wager
that's what happened in Georgia with the low-wing / high-wing midair on final last year.

Railchummer wrote:Sorta/kinda the same problem..... pilots shooting GPS approaches to non-towered airports on clear days, usually with 3 or 4 planes in the pattern and a couple waiting to take off. Case in point, KPLU........................... I haven't looked up the NTSB report yet, but I'd wager
that's what happened in Georgia with the low-wing / high-wing midair on final last year.

Because it's a bit of a quiet airport most of the time, KGXY seems to be a mecca for instrument trainers from elsewhere. For many months now, we've had regular instrument training by Boutique Air, which flies PC12s. Of course they fly all of the approaches (ILS 35, VOR-A, GPS 17, GPS 35, GPS 28, GPS 10). But they seem to do a really good job of staying out of the way of everyone else, including on Saturdays when the airport gets pretty busy with $100 hamburger flights coming in for breakfast or lunch at the Barnstormer restaurant. They're much better at avoiding conflicts than many of the one-offs that come in to practice the approaches.

Cary