Talk about Jekyl and Hyde, Shit. Rob Ford news clips and over proof rum don't mix. I sincerely apologize to Avid Flyer for what appears to be a personal attack, It wasn't my intention, but after reading, it sure as hell could be taken that way, and I'm sorry to him and to all.

It's clear my rant was based on jealousy and envy. I sure as hell would like to some of your problems up here, What I wouldn't give to have some Simonds type airstrips in the middle of no where. or a big golf greens type strip in the mountains where you can hang out and look at all the different type of aircraft. We had some vague resemblances around here once, but there gone now
Alcohol has a way of releasing frustration. I suppose that's a good thing as long as some of the thought filtering stays intact. One can learn a lot by what one writes when under the influence. It's very apparent that I really like the word fuck.

Takes a big man to own up. I respect that.

uummm...

Might i say as my 2 pro rodeo buddies say, who have seen more than their share of airplane/rodeo crashes...

Pay your $, take your chances...dont whine about any of it as u chose to be there at that time...and thank God we live where we do.....!

stay around aviation and there will be bad accidents...my history goes way back in the frank church and such...has always been that way and will likely continue...

somehow i still consider the risk acceptable, as most of you do...although i am much better prepared in the event of taking another digger, its still a huge possibility...right after i leave challis and head west...dont kid yourself about the oldskool motors we all push around...they are what they are, and are damn good. i have one of the best mechanics in the west taking care of mine to help limit that risk as much as possible...and the risk is still there....

so if u want to limit where and when u go, more power to you, thats called limiting your risk too, good on 'ya....our buddy ICE has every right to fly back there as much as us natives, and i commend him for still coming here and managing his risk too!

I am thinking of heading to JC on the 2nd of july maybe meeting up with Iceman, It will be my 2nd trip to JC since the accident, I also try to avoid large crouds in small places, I just think it makes sense.

Dan

Does anybody know what actually happened?

Sidewinder, where in southwest Kanada are you located? I am located a Langley reginal CYNJ

a post on super cub.org said it was a "go around attempt started too late and couldn't clear the trees".. that's all it said...and really that's all i need to know....

littlewheelinback wrote:Does anybody know what actually happened?

From superpacer on the shortwing site:

Hello All, Really bad accident, 1950 Pacer 125 (?)(6939K) heavy loaded, bad bounce mid field and then tried a go-around. We were ready for take-off on 35, he headed our way then yawed east into the trees. Lost a wing and went inverted and hit a Chevy truck in the parking area. Plane destroyed, took 30 minutes to cut them out, broken bones & general trauma. Helicoptered out to medical support.

Well said Jo and Iceman. This accident sounds like a quality (decision making, proficiency, etc.) and not quantity issue. Glad everyone survived. In the end, as Jo said, we all have to weigh the risk and rewards for ourselves and make our own decisions. We are planning on being up that way later this week. Hope we might see a few of you up there. Fly safe everyone!

iceman wrote:when I first joined the BCP site years ago it was a lot smaller and had a lot less folks posting here and BCP fly ins were a lot smaller... I've been going to JC since 1998 almost every summer... been there during super cub fly ins, Maule fly ins when they had them, BCP fly ins and 180/185 fly ins... been into most every strip up there and caught a lot of trout..Met a ton of folks I now call friends.... most are considered the "legends" mentioned in a earlier post... I would fly with Pops, grasstrip pilot, Oregon Maule, Gump, and a whole lot of "Legends" who left this site when it started to attract 100 hr pilots and those who never have flown off a paved runway or into a canyon...

What good is a "legend" if they're not willing to impart their experience to the next generation or to people new to this hobby? If [somebody] doesn't like me, that's one thing, but to not participate here any more because inexperienced pilots want to hang out is extremely shortsighted. Many people, me included, have learned a lot about backcountry flying by asking questions and reading posts here, and I guarantee it has made me a better, safer pilot. This site and its community is better and stronger than it's ever been, and the spectrum of experience from beginner to veteran that creates a conduit for information and learning is the best thing about it. I could not be more pleased with the state of our community.

The post-crash discussions though, they tend to follow a format that's proven to be the same year after year around this time. They provoke emotion and opinion. Some of these conversations should be reserved for face-to-face interactions because heated written word is a very volatile and powerful thing.

Zzz totally agreed,Im one of those newbies, I joined about 5 years ago when I had about 100hrs or less and wanted to learn how to land short, and go to challenging strips.

I didnt have an instructor to teach so my only option was ask, read, ask practice practice and practice.
I owe it to BCP.

All the new pilots should be welcomed, if they lurk here its because they like the backcountry, this forum should very valuable to anyone wanting to learn it.

Thanks Zane,
As one of the 100hr pilots I don't post much because I feel I have very little to add but I am a voracious reader and have read everything I can get my hands on and have read almost every post on here.....almost. There are no pilots in my area (that I have met yet) that enjoy this type of flying so you guys are my mentors. It is not dificult to seperate experience from opinion and I truly do appreciate those of you with experience sharing it with people like myself that would rather not find everything out by having to learn the hard way.

keep posting and I will keep learning.......

Roamer

Zane, once again I think you have misunderstood my statements and intentions... I have always answered any questions put to me about my experiences in Idaho mostly I get PM's and I answer them all ... I in no way meant to imply that I don't like you and as far as any participation, I was referring to large fly ins... we have heard over and over on this site as well as others of the importance of mountain dual with an instructor or knowlegable mtn pilot... it wasn't an option when I started going up there... I had to learn the drainages and strip approaches from a flying buddy and from doing myself...that said we see every year inexperienced pilots headed for the back country without practicing slow flight, and spot landings... I still start a month before I leave for Idaho practicing flying on the edge of stall and hitting within 25 ft of the numbers as well as a couple canyon approaches and dirt landings here in San Diego... I have learned over the years that I can , if approach speed is less than 60 touch down at the last outhouse at Johnson creek and because of the grass still stop 100 feet before the fence..I enjoy this site very much and I too have learned from others here..I didn't leave but many did... I just think the fly ins are starting to get too big and the risk is not worth going...

Iceman, the "if you don't like me" part was in reference to people leaving the site for whatever reason. I'm aware that my intimate involvement here has been the reason for a few exits. That's all I meant.

I should add that this site is no substitute for instruction, but I know it opens the eyes for people who perhaps hadn't previously even considered all the stuff that's required for safe mountain/backcountry flying. Hopefully it gets them asking the right questions if nothing else.

As for the fly-ins, I would say that while I very much enjoyed the years I have attended in the past for the friendship and social experiences, I am now firmly in the camp that believes a "backcountry" fly-in is a strong irony and sort of against the spirit of escape and solitude that I now value. The pull of friends and meeting new ones though is always strong.

I do agree though, enjoy Idaho or wherever at a non-fly-in time for the best experience.

iceman wrote:when I first joined the BCP site years ago it was a lot smaller and had a lot less folks posting here and BCP fly ins were a lot smaller... I've been going to JC since 1998 almost every summer... been there during super cub fly ins, Maule fly ins when they had them, BCP fly ins and 180/185 fly ins... been into most every strip up there and caught a lot of trout..Met a ton of folks I now call friends.... most are considered the "legends" mentioned in a earlier post... I would fly with Pops, grasstrip pilot, Oregon Maule, Gump, and a whole lot of "Legends" who left this site when it started to attract 100 hr pilots and those who never have flown off a paved runway or into a canyon...

I am in total agreement with Steelroamer, Motoadive and ZZZ. Throughout my flying carrier both at the airlines and GA, I never understood pilots who berate lower time pilots that are hungry to learn or are just new in one aspect of aviation. Everyone is new to an airplane or a different type of flying at some point. Knowledge is power. Lots to learn from others experiences.
Clearly Iceman was new at some point and fell into this category during his flying experience. I trust that his mentors did not turn their back on him if he had a 100 hours total or had never flown into a canyon or off a paved runway as he suggests above. The quote above from Iceman only contributes to more lurkers instead of questions and participation that is healthy and welcome for everyone on the forum.

My $.02

geez read my post... I said...I WOULD FLY WITH SEVERAL OF THOSEWHO LEFT WHEN THE SITE STARTED TO ATTRACT >>>>>>did you read that I disdain or dislike or disaprove of low time pilots in any way in what I said...I have no problem wiith new time pilots and I know many.. but then I guess some folks read and interpret what they want to .....

delete

Zane,

I very much appreciate this forum and your efforts to keep it up and running. I have very little experience with fly-ins, having attended three in the last fifty years I think, but I am a people person and like visiting with people. I am no longer able to teach primary students and ag students and take pilots on the pipeline, so this forum allows me to both visit people and teach about flying. For that I am very grateful.

I caused a lot grief on this forum, when I started posting in 2013, for which I apologize. I should have read back through old posts so as to have gotten a feel for the rules of order before busting right in. This is not the first time I have put my foot in my mouth. My wife says I must like the taste of it.

My problem is that I have a projective passion for both flying and teaching and I feel a strong need to pass on what I have learned before I die. Teaching in the Army and public high schools, I learned that one had to be somewhat obnoxious to get the student's attention. One on one with students in the cockpit, not so much. I erred in using my teacher voice with adults. Some prefer private communication but public communication, when professional, can benefit the whole class.

Concerning incidents and accidents, of which I have had several, I think old pilots and teachers have a responsibility to teach from these hard lessons. Making ourselves or our agency look good or assigning blame, in this endeavor, is not effective teaching.

Anyway, this site is invaluable to me with or without the fly-ins. Keep up the good work and take my harping with a grain of salt.

Jim Dulin

I have just returned from the SuperCub fly in. It's an event I will attend and continue to do such for as long as I can.

The arm chair QBing needs to stop.

I cut the two guys out of the plane personally. I watched every detail as they flew down the runway, touched down and then bounced. They added power to settle back in and bounced again. This happened a few more times until they came to the 3/4 Mark on the runway and chose to make a go around. They could have very easily chopped the power and bounced to a stop from that point with still over 700' of runway left. The plane dogged and drifted left and slammed into a tree 20' up in the air behind parked aircraft. The planes ended up leaving fabric in the tree and landing on an old truck parked at JC about 75' past the tree they hit. The plane landed upside down. Had it been a metal plane they would not have made it. This could have be catastrophic very easily.

The pilot had 150 hours.

The plane was very under powered.

The plane was seriously overloaded.

They had no business being there with such low time.

Note: this very pilot crashed a plane previously running out of fuel on his way to McCall...

These big fly ins are not the problem as so many discuss. If you choose to have a more tranquil experience good on ya. I like both. In a tranquil setting fly all the strips you want but still practice good canyon and mountain flying procedures. With the big events maybe fly to a couple spots with your buddies and then just hang and enjoy the company of others instead of bagging all the strips in the canyons with 100 other planes. I could easily contradict myself on that as well but you get what saying hopefully.

The biggest problem I see is that fly ins and forums are a magnet to adventure. You have to start somewhere of course but you really need to check yourself and ask if your really ready for the experience. JC is a strip for everyone and anyone but god damn it, don't freaking show up to any fly in or by yourself in the mountains with very low time under your belt, and in an under powered aircraft heavily over loaded mid day. For those that are wanting to learn somthing from this, your mission as an experienced pilot is to get out and educate these pilots to the true responsibility of flying an airplane. There's a lot more than looking at the hot shot photos we (I) post on here in a remote, half crazy looking location on a mountain top. Our mission is to make these young and old pilots understand what winds, density altitude and truly understanding the environment is really all about. Heck I saw multiple airplanes flying up the middle of the canyons, on the wrong side of canyons etc.

The high wing low wing incident = low time pilot not following the pattern procedures

The mid air we know of at HSF = low time pilot no following procedures

This most recent at JC = low time pilot not following basic mountain flying procedures.

Basic yet complex procedures have been put in place long before any of us ventured into the mountains. They need to be understood, followed and practiced. Your life and the life of our passengers depend on it.

Accidents are going to happen. That's the nature of what we do as humans. Just continue to keep looking both ways when you cross the street and keep your aircraft in tip top shape. That's the best you can do. These events have nothing to do with numbers. It's the low timers not getting the training or education they need prior to actually venturing out. Maybe there is an ego in the way and they think they are at the point they no longer need more education aside from the actual first hand experience but it's quiet obvious that somehere along the line the training is lacking. I also sed this from the 10,000 hour pilot that has little backcountry time. I just broke 5000 hours and still continue to learn somthing almost everytime I fly.

One of the oldest rules in the book...your most vulnerable time flying is the first 500 hours. Just when you have think you really gotter licked. Reality is that it's the first 1000 hours plus...and you must strive for continued learning as you continue to fly for life. It's our job as pilots to speak it as of it's the gospel.

Not attending and bashing one another is not going to get it done. Yeah we can all be a little brash but choose tact and educate someone on the realities of flying.

These two individuals involved were very, very lucky.

The pilot broke his arm and suffered a laceration on his head.

The passenger suffered a broken arm, broken leg and some broken ribs and nose.

They lived to see another day...lucky is an understatement by the severity of the crash.

That's it that's all

AKT

I usually don't have problems with 100 hour pilots, they're dangerous to themselves, not me. The low time pilots use their radios almost to a fault. Of late, I've had three closer than necessary incidents with high time pilots that can fly their airplanes without thinking, which leaves them time to manage their business on the phone and company radio instead of talking to or looking for others in their area.