The saying 'timing is everything' resonates with my first trip to J.C. I had read up on the strip, had read Galen's book, practiced the crap out of flying my C-170B into the local Puget Sound grass strips, and had enough time to almost know it all (about 125 hours, and 100 of that in rented 172's).

I loaded up my plane with fuel (including the 18 gal. aux. tank), camping gear, and my 200lb friend, and off we went. Leaving from our 300' AGL, 5,002' paved runway in the mid-morning. Our goal was to fly to Kellog, Idaho and get a great steak at the Wolf Lodge, spend the night, do a mine tour, and then head off to J.C. the next afternoon. We dutifully motored our way over the I-90 pass, and then I spied the enticing grass runway of Easton State Airport (ESW)! Having never been there, I decided that we should make a quick stop at Easton, and all was good until it wasn't. We were on short final, at about 25' AGL when I recognized that the wind was changing direction often, and the sock was stiff, but moving to and fro. No problem though, as I have my trusty 180hp Lyc up front! I advance the throttle, reduce the flaps by one notch, and then I experience the first TERROR of my flying career. My frickin' airplane is not climbing like it always does. Shit! I am mid-field, heading toward the trees at the end, and my plane will not climb. I am seriously thinking that I have just made a mistake that is going to kill my friend. What an awful feeling. Remarkably though, I had no thoughts of my own safety, just my friend. Fortunately, I kept the nose down, and fought the intense desire to pull back on the yoke, built some speed and then climbed. We cleared the trees, and SLOWLY gained altitude. I checked the engine instruments, all was fine. What just happened? I had just met density altitude, and she is a bitch.

Easton was only 2,200' field elevation, it was only 88 degrees, and it was gusty. Aah, the stuff they do not teach on the PTS.

It was at that moment that I figured out why the old (cowardly) pilots only flew the mountains in the morning, in lightly loaded airplanes, and then drank beer from noon on. It is because they had met that bitch (density altitude) before.

If I had not elected to land at Easton, I would have been the guy that landed J.C. at 3:30 in the afternoon, with full tanks, 5 gallons of water, camping gear, and my 200lb buddy. I could have been the guy that ended in the trees, getting cut out of the plane by Kevin.

My eye-opener happened the day before my first approach to J.C., and because of that, we got up early, did not top off the tanks, dumped our 5 gallon jug of water, gave away a case of bottled beer, and left some firewood behind. We landed J.C. early, unloaded our camping gear, noticed the free firewood, noticed the fantastic tasting water, and noticed that we were close to McCall for a beer run.

You can read about D.A. and never fully understand it. Once you experience it, realize that it robs you of power, lift and options, you will never forget it.

I admire the guys that show videos of their pooched landings, tell of their tail-up taxi screw ups, discuss their bad planning, and all of the other countless stupid pilot tricks. I learn from them all, and they all shape my flying. I hope to meet Coyote Ugly, Gump, Contact and the others, and go to school on them. Unfortunately, I would rather camp at Mile Hi alone, in solitude, rather than at J.C. with 200 other planes. Not picking a fight, not being a dick, just figuring out where I fit in this community. Some guys fit with the 200 plane crowd, some want solitude.

I would love to fly with Contact some day, and sharpen my skills. I read his stuff, and I don't always get it. I figure that he can keep me from re-inventing the wheel on stuff, but man does his writing style make my head hurt But I really want to be good at this hobby, because the risks are real, and the knowledge base is getting older. I am still a student.

Zane, thank you for creating this forum for the exchange of ideas and creation of a community. I have flown with a dude from Costa Rica because of your site, I have toured a vacation home at Pacific City, I have pissed away thousands of hours of my work day while scouring your site, and I have learned a bit too.

But by the grace of God go I on the crash at Johnson Creek.

Bob

Thanks for the real info, aktahoe.

The decision to execute a go-around at a less familiar, terrain-constrained strip, is one of the harder decisions for me to make in mountain flying. The outcomes of a go-around on even many strips with relatively clear approaches and departure routes can be worse than making the landing work at all costs when weight, DA,HP, wind, and other factors are considered. The practical landing abort point can often be quite a ways before the touch down zone at more strips than might be obvious at first glance.

This makes a lot of strips one-way strips while they are fine in other conditions. The decision to go around too late is a frequent thing. I've only heard one CFI describe the go-around decision to include the alternative version of how to switch gears and fly the crash scenario as well.

Of the few wrecks I've seen in the back country (not witnessed, just the aftermath), more than one occurred during go-around attempts that were far too optimistic from the point at which the go-around was initiated even in DA and wind conditions significantly better than the actual accident. The ability to plan accordingly makes the decision a lot easier when visiting a new place.

I meet safe, aware, low-time pilots of every age in the back country. I was once one myself, flying around with double-digit flight time to most of the Idaho strips in what would be considered very underpowered planes.

Most people who have flown very long have memories seared on their brains of situations where they met the margins and were simply *lucky* to find themselves back home- forget about skill. Sometimes the loudest critics are those who can't relate at all to the choices the pilot faced.

When I was younger and flying "very underpowered" planes into the back country, I had to endure a lot of finger wagging by other pilots at times (the HP issue was obvious, and so was my experience. I was still in high school). However, a lot of what I learned from others kept me safe and alive. It wasn't the people telling me I had no business being back there without 500 hours, a STOL kit or 50HP more than I had. Those guys had dogma rammed up their butts. It was the guys that took the time to explain and anticipate what to expect from the local conditions, make me evaluate what my real performance would be, what to plan for, and instill a real sense of responsibility and humility for any flight I embarked on. It meant learning how to temper expectation or want with reality and facts.

Frankly, this kind of advice persuaded me to not fly at times more than any dogmatic finger wagging ever could have. Being able to recognize and fill in the gaps of your skills and knowledge is invaluable. For some, that means an instructor. For others, friends. For the rest, it is learning on their own with risk mitigation skills.

I'm happy to hear these two are going to be made relatively whole, hopefully to fly again.

Seems to me,

In aviation, t's easy to confuse time in command with relevant experience.

I say 150hrs mountain flying would be PLENTY for many people's first fly-in, depending how fast you can learn. And it seems 150 hours of city-hopping obviously isn't enough, for others at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Just looking at the number of hours flown and judging without any knowledge or context..... I don't think that's a well-informed judgement.




Totally agree with AKtahoe's comment - fly ins challenge you enough with the "flying in a group" thing, adding another dimension of challenge (like a first visit to a new strip, high altitude, mountains) is a big ask for some pilots. But I say that applies whether you are experienced or not. I've seen experienced pilots have their performance degrade in such situations. Better to find a buddy or two, and go do your own thing, than fly with the masses, if you are getting overwhelmed. That applies to any level of experience.

I love the fly-ins - they are a double edge sword. And I'm one of the low-time wannabes here. I know enough to be humble - and that's all I care about. I agree they are fantastic for networking, whiskey drinkin' and lie tellin'. Met some great flyin' buddies going to them and I don't want to stop. But I hope we all become extra and overly cautious. Things can go south quick - and it's prolly when you are the most comfortable.

I pipe up here as a current low time pilot. I have around 70 or so hours right now. Now I will add that I have more landings on a 1300 foot grass strip with obstructions and more tail wheel time then pavement pound nose wheelie time. So I learned to fly much differently then most. One of the most stressed things in my training was being consistent, fly the same airspeed, pattern, always watch out for mute pilots (I was usually mute ), and also if something goes/feels/looks wrong balls to the wall and go around. I can see how easy it would be for a low time pilot to think he is all macho and forget the basics of flying and mess up. Do I think low time is an excuse for goofing up? No! I feel that if you have you learning card in your pocket you should know your skill level and not be afraid to start over and try again. I truely believe that many CFI's arent teaching one to "fly" but rather teaching one how to move controls and push the buttons that will allow one to land on a 5000 foot runway and thus building a false sense of skill level. So I am going to make a petition for all the CFI's and pilots out there that can really fly an airplane to share what you know when ever you can you might just save someones life. I can tell you right now there has been times where I would have bent some metal had it not been for my CFI demanding in my training for me to preform at levels much higher then required for a check ride and teaching me how to do them properly and also for teaching me to set limits.

Thanks for the info Kevin, and for putting into words what I've been thinking...the clear voice of reason on this as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think Iceman was bashing the low-time guy, but trying to convey what Kevin said here.

aktahoe1 wrote:Accidents are going to happen. That's the nature of what we do as humans. Just continue to keep looking both ways when you cross the street and keep your aircraft in tip top shape. That's the best you can do. These events have nothing to do with numbers. It's the low timers not getting the training or education they need prior to actually venturing out. Maybe there is an ego in the way and they think they are at the point they no longer need more education aside from the actual first hand experience but it's quiet obvious that somehere along the line the training is lacking. I also sed this from the 10,000 hour pilot that has little backcountry time. I just broke 5000 hours and still continue to learn somthing almost everytime I fly.
AKT

Just as we have the responsibility to share knowledge with the less experienced, the less experienced (myself included depending on the subject matter at hand) have a responsibility to become educated and proficient before attempting whatever new type of flying they want to participate in. Less experienced isn't necessarily measured by number of hours in a log book either. I just sent a 20K hour plus friend up to JC this week. This was his first time in the west in the mountains, and he knew very well he was the neophyte and took every bit of advice he could get.

SpamCanFlier wrote:If I had not elected to land at Easton, I would have been the guy that landed J.C. at 3:30 in the afternoon, with full tanks, 5 gallons of water, camping gear, and my 200lb buddy. I could have been the guy that ended in the trees, getting cut out of the plane by Kevin.
Bob

Time of day really isn't the issue. If it were, you'd not see the McCall Air guys come and go all day long, landing 3/4 of the way down the strip making pickups, and depart a few minutes later. Again, it comes to experience and proficiency. I've landed many times mid day in the heat and the wind at JC and will take a up to a 10 knot tailwind doing so, but you better believe I'm aware of how my approach strategy needs to change and have a clear expectation of how the approach should be unfolding and am ready to bail when my expectation and reality diverge.

Grassstrippilot,

The 1,200 hour Bob has no problem with that sort of stuff, the 125 hour Bob would have ended in a twisted pile of aluminum.

I be that the McCall guy's flying in the afternoon are named Gump, not 125hr Bob

I only knew how stupid my decision was AFTER I had made it!

Just sayin' it could have been me.

BTW, you do some nice flying in your 205, and it has me planning a trip to Utah.

Bob

SpamCanFlier wrote:
I only knew how stupid my decision was AFTER I had made it!

Just sayin' it could have been me.

BTW, you do some nice flying in your 205, and it has me planning a trip to Utah.

Bob

I know what you meant too. Heaven knows I've had plenty of those! And still occasionally do, but try to limit them!

Thanks! Please yell when you're heading this way. It would be great to meet up!

I hope this picture doesn't offend anybody, but it's pretty instructive of the kinetic energy involved in an event like we are discussing This is of course the older 'burban (think heavy gauge sheet metal as compared to nowadays) that was involved.



On another thread, I expressed a little trepidation about my upcoming trip to the SC fly-in (my first BTW, I figured it was for the Cub guys, and stayed away, I also never went to Sturgis when I was riding a Goldwing) as I am NOT used to flying around a lot of other airplanes. It was a non issue, by the time I was on downwind "it" all came back, it being really paying attention, using the radio, using the eyeballs, etc. If you've ever flown into Oshkosh, it was about 1%, if that, of that stress level, with much better scenery. Other then the guys calling out final at what seemed like a couple miles out while several planes are in the pattern (in Cubs......short landers in other words, I mean come on, let's keep it tight, Oshkosh taught me that) but hey if that's what it took to keep it safe for them, OK, better to err on the side of caution etc. I was comfortable enough to make several more short flights after unloading all my gear, even though it got a bit busier, it was good for me to mix it up a bit and was no big deal, again, not Oshkosh or even close.

As far as the fun factor, it was funner then I thought it'd be. I started around noon walking the flightline, and only covered 25% of it, maybe less, before the 6:30 dinner. Thanks to the friendly people and very interesting airplanes, it was slow going. I totally get the solitude camping thing, I do most of my flying like that. It's simple enough to just not participate in these large events, 161 airplanes was one count.

As a Idahoan, it gave me a renewed appreciation for being lucky enough to live here. Seeing the out of state (and out of country) pilots enjoying the hell out of what we have to offer (and then going home, ha ha) was great, I tend to take it for granted. CubCrafters did such a pro job on the dinner, it almost makes me want to sell the RANS and buy a Carbon Cub, just kidding. The free food, at least the spicy chili, was REALLY GOOD, and unless I raided someones private stash, there was also FREE BEER, I mean come on, what a deal!

Lots of great things said by many but this resonates with me the most.

lesuther wrote:When I was younger and flying "very underpowered" planes into the back country, I had to endure a lot of finger wagging by other pilots at times (the HP issue was obvious, and so was my experience. I was still in high school). However, a lot of what I learned from others kept me safe and alive. It wasn't the people telling me I had no business being back there without 500 hours, a STOL kit or 50HP more than I had. Those guys had dogma rammed up their butts. It was the guys that took the time to explain and anticipate what to expect from the local conditions, make me evaluate what my real performance would be, what to plan for, and instill a real sense of responsibility and humility for any flight I embarked on. It meant learning how to temper expectation or want with reality and facts.

Frankly, this kind of advice persuaded me to not fly at times more than any dogmatic finger wagging ever could have.

wow, i must say that is one thing i love about bcp, as this is a worthwhile discussion for sure...i have some hours back there, and will have a lot more i hope. AKT pretty much nail'd it in my opinion...if ya feel inclined to go to a large fly-in...GO...they are a blast! now then, thinking it thru a bit, make a reservation, in mccall or challis with a real local pro, and ride in once with him/her...it will be golden, trust me. might cost u a 100 or 200...whoopee...

make sure u r on your game...i recently managed to acquire chronic fatigue again...was supposed to be in jc and mccall, sat eve. sunday too...but without taking all kinds of stuff to help the fatigue stuff, i did not feel good...so...i stayed the hell out of the airplane!

diving into central idaho without the deck stacked at least somewhat in your favor is plain irresponsible...at least in my book...so thanks to all for the great info, i need to hear/read it as much as anyone....

Lesuther,

I commiserate with you on the go around problem. As long as most pilots are indoctrinated in the fast approach that requires a round out and hold off, there will be a need guess. You are right that it must come well before any bounce in the mountains.

We certainly have an obligation to teach some form of slow power/pitch approach. This negates the need for the go around except when we decide to not land there.

We can't blame this pilot. He was taught that most difficult and problematic way to land. We can't blame the instructor. He was intimidated into teaching that way. It is the training system that classifies many useful techniques as poor judgment that is to blame.

Thanks for the input. I too started in low powered stuff. Mine was also high time cheap junk, mostly.

jomac wrote:.i recently managed to acquire chronic fatigue again...

Very sorry to hear that - I understand how serious that is. Someone in my family had this too. Bad deal.

aktahoe1 wrote:I have just returned from the SuperCub fly in. It's an event I will attend and continue to do such for as long as I can.

The arm chair QBing needs to stop.

I cut the two guys out of the plane personally. I watched every detail as they flew down the runway, touched down and then bounced. They added power to settle back in and bounced again. This happened a few more times until they came to the 3/4 Mark on the runway and chose to make a go around. They could have very easily chopped the power and bounced to a stop from that point with still over 700' of runway left. The plane dogged and drifted left and slammed into a tree 20' up in the air behind parked aircraft. The planes ended up leaving fabric in the tree and landing on an old truck parked at JC about 75' past the tree they hit. The plane landed upside down. Had it been a metal plane they would not have made it. This could have be catastrophic very easily.

The pilot had 150 hours.

The plane was very under powered.

The plane was seriously overloaded.

They had no business being there with such low time.

Note: this very pilot crashed a plane previously running out of fuel on his way to McCall...

These big fly ins are not the problem as so many discuss. If you choose to have a more tranquil experience good on ya. I like both. In a tranquil setting fly all the strips you want but still practice good canyon and mountain flying procedures. With the big events maybe fly to a couple spots with your buddies and then just hang and enjoy the company of others instead of bagging all the strips in the canyons with 100 other planes. I could easily contradict myself on that as well but you get what saying hopefully.

The biggest problem I see is that fly ins and forums are a magnet to adventure. You have to start somewhere of course but you really need to check yourself and ask if your really ready for the experience. JC is a strip for everyone and anyone but god damn it, don't freaking show up to any fly in or by yourself in the mountains with very low time under your belt, and in an under powered aircraft heavily over loaded mid day. For those that are wanting to learn somthing from this, your mission as an experienced pilot is to get out and educate these pilots to the true responsibility of flying an airplane. There's a lot more than looking at the hot shot photos we (I) post on here in a remote, half crazy looking location on a mountain top. Our mission is to make these young and old pilots understand what winds, density altitude and truly understanding the environment is really all about. Heck I saw multiple airplanes flying up the middle of the canyons, on the wrong side of canyons etc.

The high wing low wing incident = low time pilot not following the pattern procedures

The mid air we know of at HSF = low time pilot no following procedures

This most recent at JC = low time pilot not following basic mountain flying procedures.

Basic yet complex procedures have been put in place long before any of us ventured into the mountains. They need to be understood, followed and practiced. Your life and the life of our passengers depend on it.

Accidents are going to happen. That's the nature of what we do as humans. Just continue to keep looking both ways when you cross the street and keep your aircraft in tip top shape. That's the best you can do. These events have nothing to do with numbers. It's the low timers not getting the training or education they need prior to actually venturing out. Maybe there is an ego in the way and they think they are at the point they no longer need more education aside from the actual first hand experience but it's quiet obvious that somehere along the line the training is lacking. I also sed this from the 10,000 hour pilot that has little backcountry time. I just broke 5000 hours and still continue to learn somthing almost everytime I fly.

One of the oldest rules in the book...your most vulnerable time flying is the first 500 hours. Just when you have think you really gotter licked. Reality is that it's the first 1000 hours plus...and you must strive for continued learning as you continue to fly for life. It's our job as pilots to speak it as of it's the gospel.

Not attending and bashing one another is not going to get it done. Yeah we can all be a little brash but choose tact and educate someone on the realities of flying.

These two individuals involved were very, very lucky.

The pilot broke his arm and suffered a laceration on his head.

The passenger suffered a broken arm, broken leg and some broken ribs and nose.

They lived to see another day...lucky is an understatement by the severity of the crash.

That's it that's all

AKT

Kevin, One of the best Opines that I have read, I do not have the way with words that some do and often piss off or not get out what I'm trying to say. If everyone would read what yuo just said 2-3 times it would make them a better pilot and steward for all of us! Again, Thanks to All of you who choose to keep flying, talking ,showing and doing!!

Well, I have to disagree with Kevin's assertion that someone doesn't belong at Johnson Creek or a big fly in simply because they are a low time pilot. Though I'm not sure that's exactly what he was saying.

Frankly, with the proper attitude, most any pilot, in most any low powered plane can safely operate at Johnson Creek, or a lot of other back country strips. And, with some good training and following proper procedures, that can be a very safe operation.

A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure to watch a low time pilot (80 hours TT), flying a low powered airplane (65 hp TCraft) do a great job flying around some back country strips. This young pilot was being cautious, careful, asking a lot of questions, and learning from the group of pilots there at the time......in other words, this individual had a great attitude and approach to their flying.

Now, if Kevin is in fact correct that the accident aircraft at JC was over weight (and, unless he weighed the load in that aircraft, that is speculation.....accurate perhaps, but still speculation....let's let the NTSB figure that out-they have the tools and know-how), that's no doubt a bad thing, particularly in a place like Johnson Creek, or any of a bunch of other airports where density altitude is a major factor.

But, again, the choice to operate an airplane in excess of gross weight, or at a legal weight in conditions where the airplane can't perform adequately at that weight, is a function of attitude, not the number of hours in the pilot's logbook.

I see some pilots who approach their flying with the attitude that the airplane is just like a big dirt bike......Now, I'm not trying to pick on dirt bikers, just trying to make the point that the consequences of risky behaviour in an airplane are quite different than those generally encountered in dirt biking.

I imagine I'll get flamed for the dirt bike analogy, but the point is again an attitude, and I have no issues with dirt bikers doing many of the things they do with those machines.....crazy, wild, and incredibly skillful behaviour in many cases. My only point is, when you strap on an airplane, you need to bring a little different, more conservative attitude to the program, that's all. For the record, I am frequently in awe watching some of the riding skills I see demonstrated.....but, those skills didn't come quickly or easy either. The problem with aviation is that the learning process can be very painful and sometimes fatal.

There are folks out there who have incredible eye-hand coordination, who have superb depth perception and who are incredibly courageous. Those are great attributes to bring to aviation, but without some knowledge, training in basic skills and a good attitude, the budding aviator may not survive to be an old, bold pilot.

Me, I have been a low time pilot several times: I was a low time private pilot....man, I had so much fun learning that Cessna 150......I was a low time Super Cub pilot....landing on a beach the first time....damn, did that stretch my skills, and then the first short gravel bar, with that river looking at me if I over shot.....I was a low time float pilot.....glassy water, big loads and confined areas, small lakes and turning takeoffs, whew!!.......I was a low time ski pilot....where I broke my airplane because I didn't know what I was doing, but I was an "experienced pilot" (attitude involved? Absolutely)....I was a low time instrument pilot....and that program is a great way to get hurt......finally, I was a low time instructor pilot.....and if you don't think that student pilots are out to kill their instructors, or at least to introduce the instructor to a nice NTSB Investigator, you really need to sit in the instructor's seat for an hour or four.....and bear in mind, my use here of the term "student pilot" in some cases involves pilots with 10,000 hours flight time. As someone here said earlier in this thread, even high time pilots are new to some facet of aviation....and there, they are low time pilots.

So, I've been there and done that.....low time pilot gig. I've flown some very high performance airplanes, and I've flown some very low performance airplanes. I've generally tried to maintain a good attitude and erred on the side of caution. I've tried to learn from my mistakes (and I've made many--by God's grace rather than skill I'm here to post this) I've had a few emergencies, and my training and skills permitted me to be here today.

One of the most important things a person can do is get some specialized flight training, one part of which is a really good, thorough check out in every airplane they fly.

Again, bring a good attitude to your flying, learn from more experienced pilots, and apply some caution to your flying and even a low time pilot in a low powered airplane can have a lot of fun in flying.

Finally, I'm not trying to cast stones at anyone here. We all make mistakes. Hopefully, the fellows who had that accident at JC will heal fully, and get back in another airplane when they're up for it.

Me, after all these years, and a few flight hours, I'm still a student pilot flying an underpowered airplane at high density altitudes, trying to learn something every time I fly...trying to learn from my mistakes (and I still make them) and trying especially to learn from the mistakes of others.

It's a matter of attitude....bring a good one to all your flying, no matter where that flying occurs.

MTV

Amen MTV- You virtually just said what I said but in different words.

The load in the aircraft however, would have been two loads in my Skywagon.

AKT

Thanks Kevin, very well said.

One question, I'm not sure I understand this:

aktahoe1 wrote: The planes ended up leaving fabric in the tree and landing on an old truck parked at JC about 75' past the tree they hit. The plane landed upside down. Had it been a metal plane they would not have made it. This could have be catastrophic very easily.

AKT

Is this because a metal plane would not have left anything in the trees, would not have gotten past the tree? Not debating, just trying to understand.

Corefile, I think he's saying that the metal-tube fuselage helped save them.

MTV nailed it!

Kurt

A metal plane bends up like a coke can and can pinch you and become very difficult to remove the injured. The tube and fabric was very easy to cut and gain access to the passengers.

AKT