I've been spending a bunch of time on the phone w/ Chris from Del Air RE: my O-360 upgrade on my 170B trainer project and have been contemplating the different mods possible. Although I dont think it will benefit my mission on the trainer, I did find the long range tanks pretty compelling.

Im sure most of you have seen this guys video, but it was cool to watch. He has four parts.







https://youtu.be/SI7Q_956Ktk

I also researched Del Air long range tanks when I did my 170B conversion. I haven't felt the need to do the tanks so far, but for planning purposes, I was glad to learn that doing a Sportsman first doesn't interfere with doing the tanks later on.

From my notes at the time, Chris projected that the 7.5 gallon tank extensions run about 60-75 hours install time, and the 15 gallon tank extensions run about 70-95 hours install time. Not sure how much add'l weight for either mod. Anyone have that figure?

-DP

How would the cost of the long range tanks compare with sourcing some 175 wings ?

I gave Chris crap this AM again about joining BCP so he can give the actual info... the answer is I really dont know. I belive that his STC gives a little bit more than the 175 wing, but others may be able to answer correctly. I would assume that going the STC route would be much cheaper than the 175 wing, not to mention a whole lot easier in the legal dept. due to the STC.

David R. might know as he is installing 175 wings now...

175 wings or 172 wings with long range tanks have the same capacity as DelAir's tank extensions.
DelAir makes a super extension that gets you a few more gallons on top of that.

If your wings don't need any work, Chris's long range solution is a cost effective solution. If you're planning to rebuild your wings, you might come out ahead finding rebuilding a set of 175 wings but make sure you can get them approved first. I didn't start looking for wings until I had a signed 337 from the FSDO.

I picked up a good set of 175 wings with tanks for about $5k but it took me three years to find them.
There are a lot out there but there are few that don't need work.

A few other notes.
DelAir retains your sight gauges - 175 tanks require electronic fuel gauges.
175 wings require a field approval and the guy that signed mine retired a year ago.

Another option is to put 175 tanks in your wings but you'll probably find that route to wash out to the same price as DelAir's kit and you have no approval.

PS I have a set of 170B wings with hail damage if anyone is interested.

Another option is Flint tanks. With them the 170 winds up with 60 gallons useable.

A little more monkey motion moving fuel around, but less hassle installing. I had a set for years and they worked fine. Some disadvantages, but if you need gas.....

MTV

mtv wrote:Another option is Flint tanks. With them the 170 winds up with 60 gallons useable.

A little more monkey motion moving fuel around, but less hassle installing. I had a set for years and they worked fine. Some disadvantages, but if you need gas.....

MTV

60 gallons puts you up there with the 172RG wet wings that dingleberry put on his 170.
I've never used them but folks that have them seem to like them.

Javelin is another idea but it eats into your baggage area.

FWIW... those I know with Flints often wish they went another direction as they are super heavy empty. On a 170, it really cuts into the useful. The install is also really wonky and Rube Goldbergery. Having re-habbed a system, Im not a fan. If I wanted longer legs, I would go Del Air.

I wasn't looking to add a huge amount of aux fuel, just wanted to "relieve" the pucker factor if/when required. I went with Javelin tank, to recover the lost baggage area I extended the area for the light but bulky stuff and included the baggage door mod as well.

Every so often I wish I had a little more fuel capacity, although my P172D has the 52 gallon (42 usable in all attitudes, 47 usable straight and level) tanks like the 175. So I've done some looking, primarily at the Flint and Javelin possibilities.

FWIW, when my airplane was built, the Javelin luggage compartment tank was a factory option, so the manual covers its use. I've rejected it, though, because it just takes up too much room, and my luggage area is small as it is, especially as the resident "glamper", I need all the room I can get!

So looking at the Flint tanks, they add 24 gallons (23 usable), they weigh 34 lbs. empty, and currently they use transfer pumps to move the fuel from them to the main tanks. Earlier versions used gravity. Full, they weigh 178 lbs., roughly another passenger's weight.

So since I already consider my airplane a 3 place with the stock tanks full and a 4 place only with the tanks at half or below, that would reduce my airplane to being a 2 place. I already take off from my home drome near gross when I'm planning on a "glamping" weekend. And gawrsh, the thought of leaving some of my "glamping" equipment home galls me!

My personal comfort range is about 3 hours, and the stock tanks are good for longer than that, with reserves. I'm not all that good at peeing in a bottle while flying, so flying much longer than my comfort range doesn't appeal.

My IA has installed Flint tanks in other airplanes, so he'd probably charge for about 40 hours, as Flint suggests an experienced installer would take. The tanks cost $5,000, so with installation, it would likely be a bit south of $10,000, assuming no problems arose. While I've spent well more than that on various other things, mostly upgrading my panel, that's still a chunk that might be better spent on LL.

In balance, every time I contemplate adding extra fuel, I come away deciding not to.

Cary

Cary wrote:Every so often I wish I had a little more fuel capacity, although my P172D has the 52 gallon (42 usable in all attitudes, 47 usable straight and level) tanks like the 175. So I've done some looking, primarily at the Flint and Javelin possibilities.

FWIW, when my airplane was built, the Javelin luggage compartment tank was a factory option, so the manual covers its use. I've rejected it, though, because it just takes up too much room, and my luggage area is small as it is, especially as the resident "glamper", I need all the room I can get!

So looking at the Flint tanks, they add 24 gallons (23 usable), they weigh 34 lbs. empty, and currently they use transfer pumps to move the fuel from them to the main tanks. Earlier versions used gravity. Full, they weigh 178 lbs., roughly another passenger's weight.

So since I already consider my airplane a 3 place with the stock tanks full and a 4 place only with the tanks at half or below, that would reduce my airplane to being a 2 place. I already take off from my home drome near gross when I'm planning on a "glamping" weekend. And gawrsh, the thought of leaving some of my "glamping" equipment home galls me!

My personal comfort range is about 3 hours, and the stock tanks are good for longer than that, with reserves. I'm not all that good at peeing in a bottle while flying, so flying much longer than my comfort range doesn't appeal.

My IA has installed Flint tanks in other airplanes, so he'd probably charge for about 40 hours, as Flint suggests an experienced installer would take. The tanks cost $5,000, so with installation, it would likely be a bit south of $10,000, assuming no problems arose. While I've spent well more than that on various other things, mostly upgrading my panel, that's still a chunk that might be better spent on LL.

In balance, every time I contemplate adding extra fuel, I come away deciding not to.

Cary

Yes, with a 172 with the larger tanks, the Flints make little sense, unless you REALLY need a lot of gas. In my case, with 37 useable, the O-360 and based in Alaska made the decision for me. At that time, Del Air didn’t have an STC for the 170. A friend got 175 wings field approved on his 170, but that cost as much as the Flint tanks.

I had those Flint tanks in that 170 for 20 years, and never had a problem with them. The only down side was when on floats, it was a pain to fuel the tips, but I didn’t use them much on floats anyway.

Installation was not that big a deal, and took less time than Flint estimated.

Depending on how much gas I needed, I’d go there again. If 47 or so was enough, I’d probably install the Del Air tanks, but if I needed 60 gallons, the Flints would be first on my list.

Just because you can carry 60 gallons doesn’t mean you have to stay airborne that long. There are places in Alaska (and other parts of the world) where you fly out two or three hours, spend a few days, then fly home.....no gas anywhere along the route.

Also, look at gas prices along a route: find cheap gas, fill there, land whenever you like, but you’ve got the legs to skip over the big $$ FBOs.

There’s nothing cheezee about the Flint setup at all. Any piece of equipment that can go 20 years with minimal to no maintenance is well built.

Look at the fuel system on most Maules....very similar to the Flints in many ways.....and they seem to work.

And, don’t underestimate the maintenance time required to install those Del Air tanks, including paint for the new tank cover, etc.

I’ve never liked the Javelin tanks, because I don’t like gas in the cabin, the weight is way far aft, and as Cary says, the tank takes up a lot of baggage space.

But, whichever winds your watch, talk to some folks who’ve installed a few of them, and get a realistic picture of cost before you leap.

But, if you need a lot of gas, go with the Flint tanks.

i have a Javelin tank in my o360 170B and the biggest problem as I see it is that for every pound of fuel in the tank the legally available baggage in the standard baggage compartment is reduced by one pound so with the full 18 gallons you are only allowed 12 pounds of baggage. I would never do the Javelin tank and have considered removing the one I have as I normally don't need the extra. Most of my flying is local around an hour.

Tim

One of my stock fuel tanks [Cessna 170a] hada major leak. Tank removal and the bottom of tank totally corroded out. Jokes aside it was only the paint holding it together. Trying to source a new [slightly used ] tank was impossible in the part of the world I live in . So a repair was carried out . The “repaired” tank ended up fitting that fuel bay “exactly” . Fuel capacity increased to ninty liters or 24 us gals.

Bigrenna wrote:FWIW... those I know with Flints often wish they went another direction as they are super heavy empty. On a 170, it really cuts into the useful. The install is also really wonky and Rube Goldbergery. Having re-habbed a system, Im not a fan. If I wanted longer legs, I would go Del Air.

They aren't super heavy at all. I love mine! I compared the weight verses the aluminum tank's in mine and they are within a pound?!? The flint's are way easier to install. You basically cut out a rib and slide them in. The plumbing takes about a day to do both sides; install the gauge and you're done.

There are a heap of installs back from the 60's and 70's that are leak free and still going strong. I talked to several of these owners before I did the install and they convinced me to go this route.

My GW is 2,499 with the Franklin STC. I've got just under 1,000 useful. With 220HP, I've got 64 gallons and I'm a happy camper.

Jim