whee wrote:

Hammer wrote:A generator on the river doesn't sound right to me at all (pun unintentional but apt), not to mention being illegal on most rivers.

I would never, ever, ever take a generator on a river trip! Cold mornings don't bother me, it is the kids I worry about. We just use nalgene bottles filled with hot water when the kids go to bed and foot/hand warmers in the mornings but it sure would be nice to heat the tent for the kids. Perhaps a asbestos blanket placed under a Mr. Heater would work well. Our REI Kingdom 8 is a big tent so it will probably take a fair amount of heat to keep warm and having a heater that I can just toss in a dry box would be nice.

Glad to hear I misunderstood on the generator. I hate those damn things wherever they get used.

Regarding Mr. Heater, the issue I see with them is that there is no venting of combustion or reaction products. The Consumer Product Safety Commission did an in-depth study of them several years ago.

The following is a summary of CPSC staff’s findings:

· On average, the catalytic heater operated for approximately 6.5 hours on a 1-pound disposable
bottle of propane. This heater could not be attached to a larger fuel source (i.e., 20-pound tank).

· The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO
concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5
hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard
to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.

· When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted
from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can
deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The
degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in
the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.

· As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting
the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in
the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to
64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further
increases the degree of hypoxia.

The whole report can be seen here:
https://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/103972/CO03.pdf

At the time the only unit available used one-pound cylinders, and that still brought the hydrocarbon concentration to 64% of an explosive environment. Now they make ones that will hook up to any sized propane tank. Falling asleep with one burning in your tent seems both very possible and very worrying.

I haven't read the whole report carefully enough to have an opinion on whether catalytic heaters are safe in a tent or not, but it appears that, like with most things, there's a way to kill yourself with them. It also appears that children are more susceptible to harm, which I guess mirrors the rest of the world at large.

I've used my "Portable Buddy Heater" in my Big Agnes Big House 4 tent for several seasons, as I mentioned early in this thread. It's a 4 person tent, so it's large, and it has beaucoup ventilation. I only run the heater itself when I'm awake, although I do run the pilot light all night, so I can easily start the heater if it gets too cold and in the morning. That little flame takes so little oxygen and puts out so little CO that I'm not concerned.

I don't know what model was used for that 2003 report, but the picture in the report appears to be a Coleman Blackcat, which has been materially changed since the report was written. I don't know if the earlier Coleman or the current one has an oxygen depletion sensor (there's no mention of one in any of the Coleman literature), but all of the "Buddy" models sold by Mr. Heater have that. It makes it unlikely that the oxygen in an enclosure would be drawn down sufficiently to cause hypoxia before the heater would shut itself off.

Operating any heating/cooking appliance which burns wood, liquid fuel, or propane inside any enclosure creates a risk, which must be mitigated for safety. There must be ventilation to provide fresh air, and there must be some form of exhaust except for catalytic heaters. Consequently, I have no hesitancy running my Portable Buddy Heater in my large, well ventilated tent while I'm awake, I shut it off except for the pilot light when I go to bed, but I don't cook inside, at all.

Cary

I like the idea of the open floor tents, but I've always used 3- and 4-season tents for camping. After our last tent purchase, my wife seems to be heading more in this direction...

You'll be needing a Cessna Caravan for that

Hoeschen wrote:You'll be needing a Cessna Caravan for that

Twotter and a forklift and a crew...

Hammer wrote:

Hoeschen wrote:You'll be needing a Cessna Caravan for that

Twotter and a forklift and a crew...

At this point you need a C-130.

ExperimentalAviator wrote:

Hammer wrote:

Hoeschen wrote:You'll be needing a Cessna Caravan for that

Twotter and a forklift and a crew...

At this point you need a C-130.

...into which you can drive a fully equipped motorhome.

Cary

Hammer, thanks for posting. Im enjoying this thread. I wish there were more options to fly camp on the east coast. There are too many people on this side of the country. I am needing another trip out west. (Craving distance from the masses) sigh.....

Winter camping is not something I have ever done. I have camped in late fall but nothing with actual snow on the ground.

My question is, on these open floor designs, what do you do when the snow melts inside the tent area? Won't it be a muddy mess? I mean if you have to carry a tarp to put down, what's the point? Tarps can be as heavy as the tent itself. Thoughts?

I do like the concept of the open floor. And to have a little wood stove..... thats just awesome.

Crzyivan13 wrote:My question is, on these open floor designs, what do you do when the snow melts inside the tent area? Won't it be a muddy mess? I mean if you have to carry a tarp to put down, what's the point? Tarps can be as heavy as the tent itself. Thoughts?

Well, there are conditions where the floor-less tent is going to make a sodden mess, but it's pretty uncommon.

I haven't used floorless tents in deep snow and offhand I don't think they would be a great choice, though I know people who do utilize them. Because the center pole has to rest on something firm, and the substantial tie-outs need to be anchored, and the stove has to sit on hard ground, there's a limit to how much snow it's practical to use a floor-less tent with. Unless you're really creative you've got to get down to bare earth to pitch the thing.

Sweeping or shoveling the floor area mostly free of snow is generally not a big job. The snow that's left inside the tent isn't as nice as dry grass, but under most conditions it remains snow, even when the stove is lit. All the heat is going up, and with a normal pitch cool air is coming in around the sides to replace the air going up the chimney. The ground stays relatively cool. The snow that does melt is mostly absorbed into the snow that hasn't. The stove really warms up the envelope of air inside the tent, but there is no thermal ballast, and it takes hours for snow to melt and ground to thaw. Unless you're tending the stove 24/7 or there's a general thaw, the ground will stay frozen.

A piece of Tyvek makes a good ground cover and weighs little. I typically just use it on the sleeping half of the tent and leave the other half open. Being able to spill some coffee or whittle feather sticks or walk in and out with your boots on without worrying about the floor is really nice. Would it be a good choice in a muddy field with standing water? Of course not...it's as bad a choice for some conditions as it is a brilliant choice for others.

Snow camping (where you're on snow the entire time) is very much a specialized skill...as different from camping on bare ground as IFR flying is to VFR flying. It's not just the sub freezing temperatures, it's the fact that you're constantly at risk of getting wet in sub freezing temperatures. There are a hundred small tricks that keep you warm and dry, and not knowing or not using even a few of them can lead to real discomfort.

Good luck getting some distance from the masses! We spend a good portion of the winter camping in Nevada, or The Mongolia of America, as we call it. Not much in the way of masses there...

I spent a good bit of my teenage years camping out on the trapline in interior Alaska. Many nights were spent in the wall tent in sometimes brutally cold temps. Spending time outdoors in the brunt of winter requires serious planning and a great deal of manual labor. While I still use a canvas wall tent on extended trips when weight is not an issue, my go-to choice these days is an "Arctic Oven". I opted for the pipeline model which happens to be their lightest at 20 lbs.

https://arcticoventent.com/tents/all-tents/arctic-oven-pipeline-lightweight-cold-weather-camping-tent/

I have 2 options for heating it and availability of wood usually dictates my choice for each mission. If weight isn't a major factor and/or wood supply is short, I opt for my vented propane "Nu way" stove. This thing is sweet... It provides 40+ hours of constant heat on a single tank of propane. If I am using it to warm up before bed and in the morning I can milk 10-12 days out of one tank. It is heavy, but it sure is convenient!

http://nuwaystove.com/product/model-2000/

My second option is a titanium goat cylinder wood stove that weighs only 1lb 13oz. When I first received the stove from the manufacturer I could barely believe how light it was! Think "paper" light. It doesn't hold much wood and as such burn times are minimal, but it will throw a serious amount of heat in short order. It's almost like the walls of the stove aren't there and you have an open fire in the tent... Lately I've resorted to using a mixture of local wood and cubed up pieces of presto log. I found if I take a presto log and cut it into 2"x2" cubes I can extend the burn time and focus on doing something other than keeping the stove fed.

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/cstove.html

All in all I am very happy with my arctic oven. It is by no means a backpacking tent, but seems to be the perfect size for 1-5 night winter trips in the plane.

I use a Tyvek ground cloth under my dome tent, scrounged off a construction site. Its what they use under a Dryvit or stucco job, it isn't the smooth too slick stuff, but has a knubbly texture, better as not too slippery. Did I say it was free?

Alaskabound wrote:I spent a good bit of my teenage years camping out on the trapline in interior Alaska. Many nights were spent in the wall tent in sometimes brutally cold temps. Spending time outdoors in the brunt of winter requires serious planning and a great deal of manual labor. While I still use a canvas wall tent on extended trips when weight is not an issue, my go-to choice these days is an "Arctic Oven". I opted for the pipeline model which happens to be their lightest at 20 lbs.

https://arcticoventent.com/tents/all-tents/arctic-oven-pipeline-lightweight-cold-weather-camping-tent/

I have 2 options for heating it and availability of wood usually dictates my choice for each mission. If weight isn't a major factor and/or wood supply is short, I opt for my vented propane "Nu way" stove. This thing is sweet... It provides 40+ hours of constant heat on a single tank of propane. If I am using it to warm up before bed and in the morning I can milk 10-12 days out of one tank. It is heavy, but it sure is convenient!

http://nuwaystove.com/product/model-2000/

My second option is a titanium goat cylinder wood stove that weighs only 1lb 13oz. When I first received the stove from the manufacturer I could barely believe how light it was! Think "paper" light. It doesn't hold much wood and as such burn times are minimal, but it will throw a serious amount of heat in short order. It's almost like the walls of the stove aren't there and you have an open fire in the tent... Lately I've resorted to using a mixture of local wood and cubed up pieces of presto log. I found if I take a presto log and cut it into 2"x2" cubes I can extend the burn time and focus on doing something other than keeping the stove fed.

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/cstove.html

All in all I am very happy with my arctic oven. It is by no means a backpacking tent, but seems to be the perfect size for 1-5 night winter trips in the plane.

Thanks for the post Jeremy. That is a sweet setup for sure. That design would make snow on the ground a non issue. A person could live in that for a while for sure!

I like the info shared on this thread. Thanks.

So is Go Lite out of business for good? I put of buying the SL5 too long??? I really wanted one of those.

AK Flyster wrote:I like the info shared on this thread. Thanks.

So is Go Lite out of business for good? I put of buying the SL5 too long??? I really wanted one of those.

For now, yes. They filed for bankruptcy and are rumored to be restructuring under a new name. I was on the email list for almost a year waiting for the SL5 before they pulled the plug. A really great tent for sure!

We recently spent several days in the desert. Since my starter motor is sitting on the kitchen table we ended up driving the FJ instead of flying.



A cold front came through as we were heading out. It wasn't really that cold...mid 20's at night and low 50's during the day. The sun was warm when there was no breeze, but even 5mph of wind really cooled things off. Since we got in late at night we pitched the North Face tent, which is much easier to pitch in the dark than the Seek Outside tent. Come morning we pitched the teepee tent and just used it for cooking, card playing and getting out of the wind space.



Having a spot to sit out of the wind and with the benefit of a stove when the sun goes down really, really makes a difference. The wind can HOWL across these open spaces and it doesn't take much to make living outside pretty marginal. During the day we'd open the double doors and still have our view while staying out of the wind. Come sunset we'd light the stove and close the flaps. If a beer gets knocked over it's a tragedy, but at least it just soaks into the ground. Muddy feet? No problem...no floor.

Even in a truck it'd be really difficult to cary enough firewood for a campfire, but it's easy to cary enough wood for the stove. There's really no burnable wood for about 80 miles in any given direction from our camp.



These floor-less tents are not, in my opinion, the end-all be-all tent for all conditions, and a big tent like mine is a bit of a chore to pitch and strike, especially with the stove assembly. But if you're staying put for a couple days it can really be a huge comfort. The only thing I'm conflicted on is whether I should have gotten the 12-person tent instead of the 8-person.

Just wanted to let people know about Seek Outside and what sort of company they are. Short version: they're a FANTASTIC company.

Longer version:

Last month my 8-person teepee tent collapsed in winds that were around 30 mph when the single center support pole broke. The pole broke exactly in the middle of one of the adjustment holes used to vary the length of the pole, which is necessary because of the variable pitch inherent to a floor-less tent. Unfortunately I wasn't there at the time and after the broken pole punctured the tent wall, the tent got whipped against the ground for an hour or more, which did it no good at all seeing as how the ground was comprised of volcanic cinders.

Now I've read reports of people claiming to use their SO tents in 80mph winds (probably an exaggeration) without fail, so I was pretty unhappy about the pole breaking and the tent being damaged. I figure the tent stakes should be the weak point, not the pole.

So I wrote Seek Outside a really long letter (or moderately short book) detailing how I'd pitched it and why I know the velocity of the wind never peaked above 30~32mph. I also detailed my unabashedly neurotic approach to gear care and how the tent fabric whipping against the cinders put more wear on it than I'd have put on it in ten years.

I promptly got an email saying "the pole should not have broken and we'll take care of you", and "please send pictures of the broken pole".

Yesterday I received a box from Seek Outside. It contained a brand new 8-person teepee tent, a replacement aluminum pole, AND a second carbon fiber pole which is a $150 upgrade. They even threw in a tube of seam seal.

This is really above and beyond for any manufacturer, but especially for a family operation like Seek Outside. I'm just really, really, really impressed with how they have treated me...a complete nobody in the world of hunting, recreation, outdoor gear endorsement, or any other world you can think of.

As for the broken pole...well, apparently it's rather uncommon. When they got the pictures of the pole they said that it was only the second pole they'd ever sold that had broken, and the first one broke exactly the same way. They once left a tent erected an entire winter at 7,200 feet in Colorado and it fared just fine.

I showed the pole to a friend of mine who designs and manufactures aircraft parts and he said "That's a zipper fracture. If the tent pole had been rotated five degrees in either direction it wouldn't have broken. It just stressed perfectly to start the tear, and once it starts it just zippers through the metal."

Interesting side note: while both the stock aluminum pole and the upgradeable carbon fiber pole use the same aluminum adjustment piece, the carbon fiber pole places that piece at the very bottom of the pole, while the stock aluminum pole places it somewhere around the middle. Because the pole flexes most in the middle I believe that the construction of the carbon fiber pole will be much stronger, material aside. I'll check with some engineers to see if this is true.

Oh...in case anyone is wondering, I have no relationship with SO aside from having bought a tent and stove from them. The only other communication I've had with them was asking if I could reinforce my stove jack with high-temp silicone, since I'd gotten it a bit hot when pitchy wood and careless management of the stove caused a chimney fire. Their reply was "just send us the tent and we'll sew in a new stove jack for free."

That's a great story.

I LOVE hearing about companies that place their customers first!

OK, here are some more:

My Big Agnes Big House 4 was damaged at OSH last year, in the big storm that occurred Saturday morning before the show started. The winds were strong enough that my airplane was turned in its tie downs (mea culpa--I hadn't chocked it), so that the tent's fly fabric was rubbing against the trailing edge of the wing and ripped it. Temporarily I duct-taped it. The tent was several years old. Long story short, it cost me about $150 for Big Agnes to replace a $500 tent, because Big Agnes was unable to repair my tent. Good deal!

I dropped my iPad at OSH, and broke the Mygoflight glass screen protector. It did its job, because the iPad wasn't damaged at all. I emailed Mygoflight, received a phone call from them the next day, and within about 3 days, Mygoflight replaced the screen protector for half price.

I have an Eno chair lounger, a hanging chair which I hang from one of the wing tie-downs. It's amazingly comfortable, but the first one came apart after only a few times out--the bungee cord which allows the aluminum struts to pop into place had come loose. I sent an email to Eno with photos, and in about a week, I had a whole new chair--and they didn't want the old one back, so I might try to repair it when I have nothing better to do.

I have an Insight G1 engine analyzer in my airplane, the first G1 installed in the US (it's a Canadian company). It worked perfectly from the beginning, but along the way they did a software update. I wasn't able to get mine to update at all, so they sent me a whole new display head, told me to send the old one back after the new one was installed so I wouldn't have any downtime, and then advised me that they'd found a circuit glitch in the old one. No charge.

Years ago, someone knocked my David Clark headset off my flight case onto the sidewalk, damaging one of the ear pieces so that it didn't work. I'd only had it about 15 years. I sent it to them, asked them to fix it and bill me. I got it back within a week, new ear pieces, new microphone, new wiring and plugs, with only the headband still the same one (I have my name etched in it, which is the only way I knew it was the same one). No charge.

Cary

9 degrees outside, 64 degrees inside. Pretty good stuff right there.

Wow, magnificent photo!

Regarding the wood stove, I was wondering if hot embers might land on the fabric and melt pin holes in it. The photo shows they could in calm winds, I suppose. Have you had that happen?