contactflying wrote:...They took a picture, MRI, of my prostrate rather than cut into it. I appreciate that.

Best non sequitur yet! I'm happy for you but slightly puzzled...was your prostate hurt in an airplane crash?

Just poking fun...I get the technology nexus, but it took me a minute.

contactflying wrote:...And I appreciate that students of aviation procedures and techniques can see what works well or poorly in video...

I guess I'd say that the video in combination with a report or a pilot interview has something of value to teach aviators. Without those things it's just crash-porn. Don't take off without enough runway; don't stall and spin close to the ground. Student pilot stuff in dramatic form and nothing more.

As a society we've decided that it's ok to parade people's lives to the unwashed masses for cheap entertainment, and I don't think that's right, even if there is a lesson to take from it every now and again. Privacy is going to be more a valuable commodity than water or gold before I'm dead.

And man, that must be a TERRIBLE airplane...real death trap that should be taken off the market.

Its best for us to learn form other people's mistakes as we won't live long enough to make them all on our own.

The video reenforced much of what I have already learned.

Don't try to take off if your plane won't fly.

Maybe it was the water surface conditions. Maybe the plane had a mechanical and wasn't making full power. Maybe overgross. Maybe it has 200 pounds of seaweek stuck to a float but something was obviously wrong.

Someday I'll be taxiing for takeoff or on the roll and feel something wrong. In the back of my mind this video and dozens of other things I've seen and read about will flash through my brain and I'll pull the power and taxi back to figure out whats wrong. And I'll live, there will be no interesting video or chatroom snarkiness.

One of the important “Ah Hah’s” we can all take away from this video: Even a tree line will make a rotor downwind. You don’t have to be in the mountains to experience density altitude and ridge effects.

Lots to learn from this video. If you’re offended by it, surf elsewhere.

Oh, shit, I just took this political.

Sorry Zane.

MTV

To me their are many things to learn from this video, learning from other's mistakes is very important and I believe it can be respectful if the discussion is about the choices and the conditions (not the pilot).
Of course most Backcountry (and float) pilots can see the mistakes made. For less experienced folks here are some of my comments.
The big factor for me is pilots always need to pay a lot of attention to wind conditions and how those winds flow over and around trees and topography. Unfortunately most training is done at airports where orographic winds are not a factor.
In the video you can see the strong and very fast-moving gusts coming straight at the camera across the water. Visible indicators like that are very important to a float pilot and a wheel pilot would need to think hard if they were considering taking off into gusty wind and then making a crosswind where strong winds are rolling down over a treeline or steep terrain.
An arced take off run like that is very common and useful to a float pilot when a take-off zone is somewhat confined. But in windy conditions it means that the plane is exposed to winds from different directions during the takeoff run and the pilot needs to be constantly compensating for all of the forces involved. On a takeoff run like that not only the crosswind (from the right during the start of the take-off run) is trying to lean the plane to the left but also the centrifugal force is pushing to put the left wingtip in the water or on floats with a high CG it puts a lot of weight on the outside float, also risking a cartwheel. With gusts the situation is, at best very very risky.
Once the plane is airborne though it looks like it is at a normal climb out speed. With those gusty conditions around and especially with the downdrafts to be anticipated near the trees I would have wanted a higher safety margin of airspeed to penetrate the downdrafts. Also when the downdrafts are encountered the pilot appears to react by raising the nose (you can see the plane going into a very high pitch attitude). This is such a common reaction and mistake. It is also seen in the videos where someone is taking off overweight and/or at a high density altitude and raising the nose just gives more drag and risks a stall. In this case it looks to me that the plane was mushing into a stall as it hit the tree. Another option would have been to drop the nose in the downdraft to get out of it faster, especially when the sea plane has the lake to it's right, dropping the nose and turning toward the middle of the lake would have gotten it out of the downdrafts where the choice could have been made to land or to resume the climb.
I am so glad that the accident was not fatal and I also hope that it can help someone else make choices that give options with much larger margins of safety.

That is what I saw. Before the mush, enough vertical space was available for a 1g descending turn back onto the lake. A downwind landing or acceleration in low ground effect would be possible there.

Good techniques, unfortunately, can be used to po po good procedure. They also can mitigate the harsh impact of the many other reasons for poor decision making.

Were the waves high enough that a crosswind takeoff was the only option for that pilot?

Looks to me like there was a lot more room available on the late if he was running into wind, especially considering the extra lift.

Battson wrote:Were the waves high enough that a crosswind takeoff was the only option for that pilot?

Looks to me like there was a lot more room available on the late if he was running into wind, especially considering the extra lift.

He did a turning takeoff into the wind.

Wave action wasn’t that ugly due to little fetch. But there was wind. But his takeoff was right into wind....and trees,

MTV

MTV

Battson wrote:Were the waves high enough that a crosswind takeoff was the only option for that pilot?

Looks to me like there was a lot more room available on the late if he was running into wind, especially considering the extra lift.

He did a turning takeoff into the wind.

Wave action wasn’t that ugly due to little fetch. But there was wind. But his takeoff was right into wind....and trees,

MTV

MTV

I salute the float and pontoon pilots here and this pilot. I have hauled too much spray out of too short unimproved strips too high and too hot with 235 hp, but I nearly always went down drainage without obstructions. You all have all that drag and mostly uphill egress. I had some really rough strips but even big rocks can bounce you into ground effect.

Hammer wrote:This video has absolutely nothing to teach anyone who has achieved the knowledge level of Student Pilot.

If this is true, two very big assumptions must be made:

1. The pilot in the video had not achieved the knowledge level of student pilot.

and

2. There are no other pilots out there with student level knowledge who might keep pushing past indications that taking to the air in a certain situation might not be such a great idea.

If I were a betting man, I would bet nearly all of my chips against those two assumptions.

Witnessing the results of running out of airspeed, altitude and options all at at the same time offers a tremendous opportunity for learning in my opinion.

I did not post this video to gloat upon the plight of a fellow airman, rather in hopes of helping others avoid the traps that in this case lead to injury, misfortune and destruction.

Scolopax wrote:...
I did not post this video to gloat upon the plight of a fellow airman, rather in hopes of helping others avoid the traps that in this case lead to injury, misfortune and destruction.

I don't doubt that at all...never have.

People can debate the educational value of this or any other video till cows lay eggs, but that doesn't change the fact that each and every one of us should have some say as to whether our life events are video taped and uploaded to the web, REGARDLESS of how much educational value they might have.

I never agreed to a world where any action I take outside my locked and shuttered house is free game for the entire world to watch and comment on over and over again, but that's the new reality. As pilots we've long been subjected to somewhat irrational public scrutiny, so it sort of surprises me that no one else seems to have any concern about privacy in the age of internet videos.

It's possible that the people who's lives were altered in the video would like it shared with as many people as possible, but it's equally likely that they would not, and I don't think they were ever asked. I for one would prefer to keep my traumas and blunders off of utube...they're really nobody else's business, edutainment value be damned.

Just guessing, but I think pretty much everybody espousing the educational value of this and similar videos would have a dramatically different attitude if it was their colossal phuckup being viewed 74,206 times, as of this post, with no end in sight. If they want to share their experiences for the education of others then that's their right...but it should also be their right not to. I don't see anything educational on this video that warrants the invasion of privacy for the people involved, and if it was uploaded without their consent, then it's a pretty safe bet that the primary value of it isn't education, it's entertainment. If it was education, permission would have been asked before posting it.

Cameras are just getting smaller, cheaper and better by the hour, and I don't like where this whole thing is now, much less where it's heading. Maybe I'm just sensitive about my privacy, but a ground loop or a nose over or a wing strike with no injury is still traumatic enough without anyone with a phone and a signal being able to upload it to the world as entertainment. Oh...and education, of course.

Hammer,

Do you know who this pilot is? I don’t, and it doesn’t matter.

You are absolutely wrong when you make the assumption that you have some perceived right to privacy when you’re out in the public eye. Nobody ever suggested that, and I sure wouldn’t expect same.

And, contrary to your suggestion, I’d have no problem at all if I were to do something really stupid or catastrophic, and video of same were shared. I would hope that someone could learn from my mistakes. And if that means someone casts aspersions about my flying skills, so be it. As long as those are somewhat informed critiques, then perhaps my folly might serve some purpose.

But, nobody ever said or implied that you have a right to privacy when you’re out in public, unless of course that video is being used for profit.

So, I’d suggest you never land anywhere near people, and be sure to blank out you tail number.

Oh, yeah, maybe wear a brown paper bag with eyeholes.....

Or, just don’t screw up.

Easy to say.

MTV

It's a matter of degrees Mike.

If someone's child is torn apart by dogs in a public park while they franticly try to stop it, it's fine to film it and put in on the web? Legally I think it probably is, but it shouldn't be. I don't think it's unrealistic for changes in technology to mandate changes in the law, or for people with a sense of responsibility to choose not to post a video out of respect for the people in it.

If you don't have any issue with your blunders, embarrassments and private details...aviation or otherwise...being posted to utube then great...you're all set for 2019 and beyond. Ten years from now you (or anyone else) can type your name into a web site and see every minute of your public life, compiled from thousands and thousands of tiny little cameras. Try not to pick your nose...

In any event, I guess I'm done trying to champion my point. A whole lot more people want to watch these videos than care enough about those involved to give them up, so things probably won't change anytime soon.

I blame NASCAR.

Hammer wrote:It's a matter of degrees Mike.

If someone's child is torn apart by dogs in a public park while they franticly try to stop it, it's fine to film it and put in on the web? Legally I think it probably is, but it shouldn't be. I don't think it's unrealistic for changes in technology to mandate changes in the law, or for people with a sense of responsibility to choose not to post a video out of respect for the people in it.

If you don't have any issue with your blunders, embarrassments and private details...aviation or otherwise...being posted to utube then great...you're all set for 2019 and beyond. Ten years from now you (or anyone else) can type your name into a web site and see every minute of your public life, compiled from thousands and thousands of tiny little cameras. Try not to pick your nose...

In any event, I guess I'm done trying to champion my point. A whole lot more people want to watch these videos than care enough about those involved to give them up, so things probably won't change anytime soon.

Hammer,

In case you hadn’t noticed, this is an aviation site. What does a dog tearing apart a child have to do with an aviation accident?

If these things offend you, don’t watch these kinds of videos. Don’t want to have your screw ups shared on You Tube? Don’t crash.

Again, if I screw up, AND someone videos it, I hope someone learns something from my misfortune. Without us learning something, Aircraft accidents are truly tragic.

MTV

I have about 450 hours in seaplanes. And definitely learned something from that video. Or let's say "reminded" me of various laws of physics.

Almost lost my 8GCBC in the Colorado River near Lake Havasu... I underestimated a "Desert Wind Advisory". My ship is underfloated and was almost capsized turning downwind after alighting. I should of sailed backwards, then departed. There were many boats in the general vicinity and surely somebody had a camera. I was lucky, my bad judgement was mitigated by a lull.

Opinion: Censorship has no place in the physics of aviation accidents. I agree, don't crash if you don't want to be on television. Or even better consider not being a pilot if transparency is not your thing.

Bagarre wrote:I blame NASCAR.

Go fast, turn left err... right?

mtv wrote:In case you hadn’t noticed, this is an aviation site. What does a dog tearing apart a child have to do with an aviation accident?

I tend to agree.

Unless the video includes illegal content, i.e.:
- contains offensive images,
- contains national secrets,
- shows a person's image against their express wishes,
- violates privacy laws,
- violates copy-write,
- etc.

...then uploading videos in the public domain is fine. Most video recordings are legal with or without consent. State laws may vary.

If you are flying at an airshow, airstrip, or riverbed / lake and you screw up, then you are cannon fodder for the armchair brigade

I'm always a little annoyed when I do something dramatically spectacularly stupid, bike riding, flying, whatever, and it ISN'T witnessed by others or taped. May as well get to watch your screwup yourself!

I'm with you. I'm too old to do much now, other than forget where I am going. All the wires I flew through, all the forced landings, one witnessed. Border patrol guy saw my worst screw up.