A caveat...I am a ex flyer of the mighty 180 and ultra mighty 185 and my opinions rank right up there with all of the other has beens that no longer are active aviators and owners. But I do enjoy looking at the fabulous rebuilds on this site. I have no opinions about what is better or worse, or who or what the best of anything is other than hot Serbian women and BAS harnesses.
Mike V is in my most firm opinion correct, the "old style" original BAS harnesses work efficiently, even when you crash, and even when you are hurt. And even when you have to crawl out the window upside down. and even when you can't see out of your eyes from the blood, and even when your head is swollen from a ice cooler coming forward THROUGH your cargo net and coming close to de capitating you. There is no thinking process then when you smell fuel, and are bleeding and stunned. You need to, and want to get out, and NOW.
Both probably work as well, but the main message is get them installed THE FIRST THING YOU DO WHEN YOU BUY A 180 OR 185.
I would post some pictures making all of you believers, but no way I will ever understand this format. But please keep rebuilding these great birds, I really enjoy reading and observing these rebuilds. And that is the message from exVxclimber.

Prosaria wrote:

colopilot wrote:Does installing a set of these constitute "complex assembly operation", or would it fall under the 'replacing safety belts' part of FAR 43 Appendix A(c)(14) for owner preventive maintenance? Where I'm going with this is do I actually need an IA sign-off/participation, or do the owner maintenance provisions cover me doing the work and filling in the books myself?

This is one of the very next things being done on my 'new' '57 182, the lap-only belts in there will not exist past next month, at least in the front. I'd also like to do the rear seat at some point, but for now that one's OK since passengers there won't go headfirst into the panel.

Check out the FAA policy statement for retrofit shoulder harnesses.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/media/shoulderpolicy.pdf

There is guidance for minor alteration approvals, which would get you closest to preventative maintenance. That guidance says no drilling holes. You have to drill a couple holes for the BAS mounts.

There is no reason you couldn't install them yourself and have an IA "supervise" your work and sign the 337 for the STC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One could argue that you're not drilling new holes but removing existing rivets and replacing them with approved structural screws. That would make shoulder harnesses a minor alteration but still require an A&P to replace the rivets with screws.

My last airplane had the hooker harness STC which really modifies the carry thru spar with a steel doubler and a reamed thru-bolt. But no inertia reel and a LOT more complicated of an install.

exVXClimber. That is a very dramatic testimonial. Thanks. I have them installed and have no regrets. Hope I wasted my money though!

colopilot wrote:Cool, thanks for the clarification. Yes I'd want to do it myself either way, but that explains the paper trail part of things.

A caveat: make SURE that you drill the correct size holes! A friend eye-balled the drill bit size, and it was too large by just a tiny bit, so that the bolt wiggled more than our mutual IA would approve. So that meant installing doublers, which had to be riveted in, so that the bolt would go through the correct size holes. Granted that our IA is a bit persnickety, but when you're wanting the harnesses to work if they ever have to, you want to do the installation absolutely correctly.

Incidentally, although I've never had to make an emergency egress from my airplane, I have to say that I agree with Mike about the "standard" buckle. Either one is OK, and a couple times buckling the allegedly less convenient "seaplane" or "utility" buckle is enough to learn how to quickly buckle it, getting out with either one is a non-issue. You're more likely to get hung up because you didn't unplug your headset than by the harness. But the "standard" harness is much less likely to flop out the door to be caught in the door when it's slammed shut--a buckle banging against the side of the airplane can do remarkable damage, as any instructor will tell you if he relied on the student to properly stow the seatbelt and close the door when letting the student go on a supervised solo (please don't ask me how I know! ).

Cary

Cary, just to make your IA look a little less picky, those holes are not just for the bracket for the seat belt but are in the aft carry through spar. The cabin top skin and the inverted hat section riveted together make a box that carry the wing loads across the cabin. Drilling those rivets out to be replaced by structural screws is just one reason that it is not a "do it yourself" project. Sometimes things that look simple are not if a person doesn't have the experience or training to know that they are more critical than they look. That being said there are may owners which could safely do the installation with adequate supervision.

Tim

Reading this thread just prompted me to order a set of BAS standard harness's. I just never felt right in my 182 for the last 6 months with only lap belts. I fly mainly over wildness, so a forced landing would probably be in the trees, not to pretty without shoulder harness. I looked briefly at the single point shoulder as the nutplate is there, but you guys convinced me otherwise.

Some really good install pics here:

http://www.cessna172club.com/forum/ubbt ... ber=242214

Mark Y. wrote:Reading this thread just prompted me to order a set of BAS standard harness's. I just never felt right in my 182 for the last 6 months with only lap belts. I fly mainly over wildness, so a forced landing would probably be in the trees, not to pretty without shoulder harness. I looked briefly at the single point shoulder as the nutplate is there, but you guys convinced me otherwise.

Some really good install pics here:

http://www.cessna172club.com/forum/ubbt ... ber=242214

They're pricey, but I've never regretted having them installed in my '63 P172D. The funny thing was that I had my engine-out out-in-the-field landing before they were installed. They were sitting in the box at home, with the plans to have my IA install them the next week. Fortunately, the field was relatively smooth, the landing was smooth (of course, that's due to my incredible skill ), and plain old seatbelts were just fine. And still, 13 years later, I've never "needed" them, but it's comforting to know that they're there if need be. They're a whole lot better than a 3 point, and the inertia reel is much better than a fixed version, for reaching not just the manual flap lever but things that get dropped, items on the panel clear over to the right side, etc.

Cary

Going to tackle the harness install soon. The only talk about moving the nut plate is for the 210's. The existing nut plates in a 182b are not centered behind seats, about 3 inches off. Instructions say roughly centered, Is the three inches offset normal?

Without going to measure, that seems about right. My 185 didn't have the anchors perfectly aligned either. Essentially the same fuselage.

Don't worry though. It's not noticeable when wearing them. I even considered how the occupants upper bodies would displace sideways as the belts tightened in a sudden stop, and it didn't seem significant.

Thanks for confirming!

UPS Santa Claus finally delivered my harness kit from BAS. They were great to work with, sending me a bunch of fabric samples and correctly advising me that colors on the website aren't what you get in real life. I'm glad they did because the one I was going to pick looked a bit interesting in real life. The Hunter Green will match my plane nicely. They took a month to come in because of the custom color order, but they get installed Monday. Now I can stop feeling really wrong about flying with just the lap-only belts in there now.

I also purchased a 406MHz ELT and a GPS source since the 121.5's are basically glorified paperweights - only slightly better than nothing at all, though they still somehow meet FAA approval. Growing up with a dad on a CAP ground search crew, I was educated somewhat bluntly that pilots tend to die primarily from a couple things: Not surviving the impact or being conscious enough to egress before the plane burns, and not being found before they succumb to exposure or injury. I think both of these upgrades will improve my odds greatly in that respect. I fly with an InReach as well, but I see no problem with redundancy.

My bank account is still (inertia) reeling a bit here, but I'd rather drop some coin and live to bitch about it. Looking forward to a test flight with these new harnesses in a few days!

colopilot wrote:<snip>
My bank account is still (inertia) reeling a bit here, but I'd rather drop some coin and live to bitch about it. Looking forward to a test flight with these new harnesses in a few days!

Hate to disappoint you, but what you'll notice about the harnesses is that you won't notice them! You can reach here and there, reach down to pull the flap handle, pick up that pen you dropped on the floor, all just as easily as if you didn't have them, like now when all you have is seatbelts. And that's all good, right?

Cary

Cary wrote:
Hate to disappoint you, but what you'll notice about the harnesses is that you won't notice them! You can reach here and there, reach down to pull the flap handle, pick up that pen you dropped on the floor, all just as easily as if you didn't have them, like now when all you have is seatbelts. And that's all good, right?

Cary

Finally got up for a test flight yesterday, my A&P and I both had to leave before it was done on Monday so he had to finish while I went off on a work trip. You're not kidding, those things are great! It is a very well made kit. I also opted for the floor sheath protectors just to help keep the fabric from abrading, and the neck cuffs which I haven't installed yet. The belt does rub one's neck just a tiny bit, so I will try the cuffs next time. Not sure when next time will be yet, upon return I tried to take one of my kids back up and the battery couldn't even crank the engine any more. But I can sit on the ground and make engine noises at the moment, and know I am in the safest harnesses money can buy.