Must be election year.

EZFlap wrote:

"Just buy a Mule" after this is all over."

Tim

MTV, I agree.
I remember pm'ing the administrator right after the Austin Texas federal building crash that some of the videos getting posted were looking way over the line all of a sudden given the expected focus by the fed's on risky flying behavior of some and were very identifiable as to the pilot/plane. I suggested maybe a word of caution from the administration of the site would be a good thing for the future of several. The pm'ds reply was in defense of the right of freedom of speech and the dangers of censorship to the overall operation of an open forum. There would be no censorship of that right of the poster if he chose to endanger himself in that regard. In this case, the judgement of the poster on his own posting would be left to him. I thought that to be a quite noble answer relating to the general operation of this forum and true to our greater ideals of freedom in general. I decided to agree on that level and left the administration to run the site as that is what they do better than I as an individual.

As an individual though, I pm'd the poster to point out to him the attention he had drawn to himself at this point in time might not be a good thing. Turned out he had posted his video and had taken off for a few days while the events at Austin unfolded. While returning he had seen the news and had the same thoughts as I. Better take it down. He found himself rushing home to remove the video himself before he even saw my pm, realizing it was a potential trouble magnet that, at any other time might not have been.

Administration has certain responsibilities that we as individuals do not. We trust that to them. Individuals have the separate freedom and responsibility to make good individual decisions concerning their own actions. In the end we are each, (administration and individuals) responsible for balancing these two sets of intertwined freedoms and responsibilities that cannot exist without the other if we are to have an open forum.

Well stated Z.

Zane wrote:

Twoupfront wrote:And that is exactly what you'll do by trying to sweep it under the rug after the fact.

Frankly, I don't care what you think, and you've thought a lot here today.

According to your profile, you're a journalist. You're also a student pilot with only a few hours under your belt, by your own disclosure. You're also...in Denmark?

Consider me the editor. By principle, I don't edit people's posts, and generally allow free reign among the flying chat. However, where I see fit for purposes that trump the entertainment of curious readers, I will censor my privately owned website. Per the Newbie Guide and Terms of Use that you read and agreed to upon registration, persistent criticism of moderation actions will enflame my hemorrhoids and you'll get shat out the airlock. So if you want to keep playing, let it go.

Fine. But just for the record, I haven't criticized any moderation, nor have I tried to come off as someone with a lot of experience in flying. GA is also strictly governed here in the EU, even more so than in the US, and governance in EU and how official bodies react here are not different than in the US. I have on purpose given you guys the information you needed to know this discussion was not about flying, nor was it an attempt to pretend anything. I have explained why this particular debate was a debate about public relations, not about flying, hence I see no point in you emphasizing my (lack of) experience flying. It's not about flying.

However, I will take you "advice" to heart, and ignore this thread, seeing as I can't have an opinion on legislation, PR, and general image building when I only have few hours flying and live in - horror! - Denmark.

EZFlap wrote:So perhaps translucency, instead of transparency, is the ticket.

+1

Your example is great, and I really appreciate hearing anecdotal/hypothetical analogs to a given debate. But, I have to say that even a 3rd grader will connect dots. And by the time one has risen to their level of incompetance - and Juliet Delta is part of their signature - a red rider decoder ring doesn't provide much protection. No offense intended for anyone out there whose names include Juliet Delta.

Mule stock just went up in my book... I hear their tires don't go flat, and their shit don't stink. ;-p

'G

soyAnarchisto wrote:
Mule stock just went up in my book... I hear their tires don't go flat, and their shit don't stink. ;-p

'G

Mule or Mall??

Twoupfront wrote:

Zane wrote:

Twoupfront wrote:And that is exactly what you'll do by trying to sweep it under the rug after the fact.

Frankly, I don't care what you think, and you've thought a lot here today.

According to your profile, you're a journalist. You're also a student pilot with only a few hours under your belt, by your own disclosure. You're also...in Denmark?

Consider me the editor. By principle, I don't edit people's posts, and generally allow free reign among the flying chat. However, where I see fit for purposes that trump the entertainment of curious readers, I will censor my privately owned website. Per the Newbie Guide and Terms of Use that you read and agreed to upon registration, persistent criticism of moderation actions will enflame my hemorrhoids and you'll get shat out the airlock. So if you want to keep playing, let it go.

Fine. But just for the record, I haven't criticized any moderation, nor have I tried to come off as someone with a lot of experience in flying. GA is also strictly governed here in the EU, even more so than in the US, and governance in EU and how official bodies react here are not different than in the US. I have on purpose given you guys the information you needed to know this discussion was not about flying, nor was it an attempt to pretend anything. I have explained why this particular debate was a debate about public relations, not about flying, hence I see no point in you emphasizing my (lack of) experience flying. It's not about flying.

However, I will take you "advice" to heart, and ignore this thread, seeing as I can't have an opinion on legislation, PR, and general image building when I only have few hours flying and live in - horror! - Denmark.

Just can't let it go can you?
I believe Zane's point was your lack of experience in American aviation politics. No one here would think to lecture you on EU aviation PR. Most of us have limited exposure to it. The non-flying American public is not the same demographic as what I would assume the Dane's to be. A PR professional should know about his target audience. He should also be aware of his own personal PR.
The biggest error in your argument was the assumption that the nonflying public gets it's info from this site. While this site is certainly the best backcountry site out there. (shameless suck-up) It is not the news outlet for all things aviation. John Q public is blissfully unaware of any lack of transparency on this site. What we are trying to do is mitgate the potential damage that could happen if the wrong people read info here that could have a negative effect on our sport. If the info is available elsewhere, we have no control of it. What we can control is what we released here.
Many of of here on this site have fought the PR battle on many fronts. Most of us are dirtbikers, snowmobiliers, skiers, hunters and even skateboarders and Maule owners. So we are all well aware of the pitfalls of negative press.
And please spare us the sighs of exasperation. We may be backcountry flyers but we are not country bumkins. (OK some of us are....and you know who you are )
Don't assume us to be intellectually inferior because of your ability to turn a phrase.

Okay, since I wonder? What's wrong with saying goodbye to a thread with a final remark? Apparently you wanted me to shut up completely.

I do know my target "audience" and it wasn't you. This was a discussion about Public Relations and how some things (regardless of topic) will be construed by naysayers and other detractors. I wasn't trying to teach anyone how to perceive anything, but rather how it will be perceived by someone else.

Nor was I as the sender of the message acting on behalf of a body or entity other than myself.

Rather, it seems, some of you would enjoy a carte blanche to say whatever after I already said I was going to leave this thread, and that I acknowledged the advice to do so.

As for "turning a phrase". I'm Danish, and do my work in Danish, although I have been pressed into writing some stuff in English on rare occasions when a customer wanted something in both languages or were on a strict deadline to get to a show or convention.
I don't consider myself nearly as professional (not even close) when it comes to the English language compared to my level when it comes to Danish, so I choose to take your comment on my ability to "turn a phrase "(that in itself is a great phrase, I think) as a compliment.

As for the real debate about what to say and what not to say, I promised Zane I'd leave it be, so I won't go there again, regardless of your baiting.

Edit:
I don't consider you guys to be inferior. I know about a few things, and some of that is PR and associated damage control. I don't know what else you guys know besides flying, so I can hardly think of myself as superior (and you as inferior as a consequence). I only attacked the arguments, and when I got warned about that, I said my goodbyes to this thread, only to have you try to rehash it.

So, can I leave it at that?

Twoupfront wrote:Okay, since I wonder? What's wrong with saying goodbye to a thread with a final remark? Apparently you wanted me to shut up completely.

I do know my target "audience" and it wasn't you. This was a discussion about Public Relations and how some things (regardless of topic) will be construed by naysayers and other detractors. I wasn't trying to teach anyone how to perceive anything, but rather how it will be perceived by someone else.

Nor was I as the sender of the message acting on behalf of a body or entity other than myself.

Rather, it seems, some of you would enjoy a carte blanche to say whatever after I already said I was going to leave this thread, and that I acknowledged the advice to do so.

As for "turning a phrase". I'm Danish, and do my work in Danish, although I have been pressed into writing some stuff in English on rare occasions when a customer wanted something in both languages or were on a strict deadline to get to a show or convention.
I don't consider myself nearly as professional (not even close) when it comes to the English language compared to my level when it comes to Danish, so I choose to take your comment on my ability to "turn a phrase "(that in itself is a great phrase, I think) as a compliment.

As for the real debate about what to say and what not to say, I promised Zane I'd leave it be, so I won't go there again, regardless of your baiting.

Edit:
I don't consider you guys to be inferior. I know about a few things, and some of that is PR and associated damage control. I don't know what else you guys know besides flying, so I can hardly think of myself as superior (and you as inferior as a consequence). I only attacked the arguments, and when I got warned about that, I said my goodbyes to this thread, only to have you try to rehash it.

So, can I leave it at that?

Gee whiz! Since you were talking about perceptions, pr and the like then you must also know that sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. And you call yourself a journalist.

58Skylane wrote:

Yah Pat!, Let's just beat this sum'bitch to death! Dead horses (or mules) tell no tales.

Fisherman wrote:
Gee whiz! Since you were talking about perceptions, pr and the like then you must also know that sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. And you call yourself a journalist.

I'm here as a privat person, just like you. I wasn't aware that I ought to hold you guys in reverence just because you have flown more than me.

I use argumentation, and as it happens, that usually takes a little more space to get the message across than does oneliners and catering to the lowest common denominator.

What is it with you guys? Seriously, since my profession is journalism, I'm suddenly supposed to write as if I was writing a press release!? Do you ask dentists and programmers to write respectively a dissertation and a piece of software code?

Yes, I know I can come across as harsh - particularly to a sensitive American (no sarcasm, just so you know) - so be it. But to try to use my profession against me, just because I use the knowledge of my work to make an argument is utterly ridiculous, and frankly below board. It's like me saying that a pilot should talk in a certain manner, that a pilot should always be an advocate of nature, since that is where the fun is, or some other nonsense. I don't hold your pilot certificate against you at all, and once again, I do not consider you guys to be inferior somehow.

I wish I could get this thing to die, and simultanously make you guys stop shooting ulterior motives in my shoes.

What about it? Should we call a truce?

Twoupfront wrote:Should we call a truce?

Hell no! This is good cheap entertainment. Keep it rollin

58Skylane wrote:

Twoupfront wrote:Should we call a truce?

Hell no! This is good cheap entertainment. Keep it rollin

Ha, ha! Yeah, you're probably right, but I still think it would be better for all parties if we could somehow agree to a truce

I have the feeling I just wandered into the "arguement clinic".

Twoupfront wrote:Okay, since I wonder? What's wrong with saying goodbye to a thread with a final remark? Apparently you wanted me to shut up completely.

I do know my target "audience" and it wasn't you. This was a discussion about Public Relations and how some things (regardless of topic) will be construed by naysayers and other detractors. I wasn't trying to teach anyone how to perceive anything, but rather how it will be perceived by someone else.

Nor was I as the sender of the message acting on behalf of a body or entity other than myself.

Rather, it seems, some of you would enjoy a carte blanche to say whatever after I already said I was going to leave this thread, and that I acknowledged the advice to do so.

As for "turning a phrase". I'm Danish, and do my work in Danish, although I have been pressed into writing some stuff in English on rare occasions when a customer wanted something in both languages or were on a strict deadline to get to a show or convention.
I don't consider myself nearly as professional (not even close) when it comes to the English language compared to my level when it comes to Danish, so I choose to take your comment on my ability to "turn a phrase "(that in itself is a great phrase, I think) as a compliment.

As for the real debate about what to say and what not to say, I promised Zane I'd leave it be, so I won't go there again, regardless of your baiting.

Edit:
I don't consider you guys to be inferior. I know about a few things, and some of that is PR and associated damage control. I don't know what else you guys know besides flying, so I can hardly think of myself as superior (and you as inferior as a consequence). I only attacked the arguments, and when I got warned about that, I said my goodbyes to this thread, only to have you try to rehash it.

So, can I leave it at that?

With all due apologies to the dead mule. I have some time to kill before my next case and I can't resist.
So if I/we were not your target audience, who was. The sensitive American public?
You profess to teaching us, not how to perceive, but how it will be perceived. Wow, thanks. This comes from what experience? Your many years of debate in open public forums here in America? Your superior knowledge of the American psyche? Your accomplishments as a pro-access defender?
You laud your credentials as a journalist and a P.R. person and then cry foul when we call you on it.
Actually I do hold some of the experienced pilots here with a bit of reverence. Many more of them with a great deal of respect. That is why I frequent this site. (Ok there is a bit of comic relief)
You insist that you do not hold yourself to be superior but compare your lofty educated arguments to be more thought out than our "lowest comon denominator", one liners. .....No condescension there.

I got to get me some of dat edumacation stuff.

"So can I leave it at that?"
Apparently not.

Once again, my sincere appologies to the mules and horses. Just too much time on my hands.

S-12Flyer wrote:With all due apologies to the dead mule. I have some time to kill before my next case and I can't resist.

Figures.

So if I/we were not your target audience, who was.

The target I was discussing was the broader public and how it perceives what seems to be closedness and sweeping stuff under the rug. That is the target audience that matter.

The sensitive American public?

Read what I said again, and try to be honest when responding to it, instead of that form of intellectual dishonesty.

You profess to teaching us, not how to perceive, but how it will be perceived. Wow, thanks.

I wasn't the first to use the word "teach". I should have used another word when responding to that particular comment, but it seems some of you are more than reluctant to realize that you cannot just sweep things under the rug these days, or even do things that make it seem like you do. This is true anywhere you have bodies overseeing what you do and what you can do.

This comes from what experience? Your many years of debate in open public forums here in America? Your superior knowledge of the American psyche?

I have been debating Americans and American politics since I was a teenager, and I have traveled extensively around the world, including the US. As a journalist I follow US politics pretty closely, especially since Denmark has a history of following directions from the US.
And once again, what's with the constant accusations of me being superior? It's beginning to sound like an inferior complex on your part.

Your accomplishments as a pro-access defender?

I have already explained this too you ad nauseam. Quit with the strawman argumentation.

You laud your credentials as a journalist and a P.R. person and then cry foul when we call you on it.

Another strawman. I point to the fact that you want me to write a press release when ever I speak here, completely ignoring I'm here as a privat person. You're not paying me, and I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am telling you how things are perceived outside of the bubble.

Actually I do hold some of the experienced pilots here with a bit of reverence. Many more of them with a great deal of respect. That is why I frequent this site. (Ok there is a bit of comic relief)

You obviously missed the point. Once again, if we were talking about flying, sure. I could probably muster some reverence for some when I got to know them. But we're not talking about flying skills.

You insist that you do not hold yourself to be superior but compare your lofty educated arguments to be more thought out than our "lowest comon denominator", one liners. .....No condescension there.

If you read it again, you will notice it's a comment to a particular post which reads as a one-liner with no argument in it whatsoever.

I got to get me some of dat edumacation stuff.

Yup, no inferiority complex there at all.


Seriously, I do NOT believe I'm superior in any way, form or fashion. I DO believe that some people are expert carpenters, some are expert pilots, some are expert dentists, some are expert salesmen and so and so forth. Some are expert on more than one thing. If I need my teeth fixed I go to an expert: A dentist. If I need my roof done, I go to an expert: A roofer. If I need my car done, I go to an expert: A mechanic. If I need to fly somewhere I let a pilot fly me there. When people want help handling PR and damage control (and some other journalist work), I am one the people they can call upon.

It's really not that difficult. That doesn't mean I think I'm superior to, say, a carpenter. It just means my line of work is different than his.

"So can I leave it at that?"
Apparently not.

[/quote]

No, I guess not

Double

ya see................ The system works...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accide ... 0_247C.txt

The backcountry in Idaho is VERY remote and reporting incidents /accidents takes a few days to process.......

Funny though.......... The Husky@ Johnson Creek and the Cub @ Lower Loon still have not shown up.

hicountry wrote:

58Skylane wrote:

Yah Pat!, Let's just beat this sum'bitch to death! Dead horses (or mules) tell no tales.