This topic has probably been discussed on this forum plenty but I think it bears repeating.
Last week an M7 was totaled on Chena Marina as a result of the elevators being strung backward. Of course, this was the first flight after coming out of the shop. The aircraft ended up on its back with structual damage to the nose of the plane, both wings, boot cowl, wing struts and the vertical had substantial damage. Both occupants will be OK but I think at least one had some injuries.
There was a discussion awhile ago about not being able to nose a plane into the dirt by using full down elevator on take off. I guess we know the answer to that question...at least for the M7.
This is a prime example of why it's so important to check control freedom and direction before each flight...and expecially after it comes out of the shop.

I am glad that neither was severly injured.

I am interested in what shop did the work and who signed it off. Mistakes happen but something like the elevators should have been triple checked.
You never ever trust anyone else even if they are blessed by the FAA.

flyer

Capt. Kirk wrote:There was a discussion awhile ago about not being able to nose a plane into the dirt by using full down elevator on take off. I guess we know the answer to that question...at least for the M7.

I have a feeling it was a throttle > roll > try to bring tail up, but take off it 3 point attitude at slow speed because of inadvertent up elevator, when down was intended to bring tail up. They prob got a little airborne, went with it, pulled back to climb and stuffed it in.

I don't think it's exactly the same scenario we were discussing in the other thread, because I'm going to speculate that they were off the ground.

THis one goes along with the mechanic who misrigged the ailerons on a Citabria a while back in Fairbanks.

Fortunately, in that case, the "mechanic" decided to flight test the airplane hisself. Slow roll after takeoff, and ka-whump.

Darwin said something about this, but these folks are surviving and probably reproducing.

MTV

flyer wrote:I am glad that neither was severly injured.

I am interested in what shop did the work and who signed it off. Mistakes happen but something like the elevators should have been triple checked.
You never ever trust anyone else even if they are blessed by the FAA.

flyer

It was a small shop on Chena Marina (in Fairbanks). If you want to know the name of the shop send me a PM and I'll let you know. Don't know that it would be appropriate to post the name in the public forum...but I kinda feel like doing it to warn other pilots that may use him. He's got a reputation for crappy work...and yet he keeps busy.

I know it's a pilots responsibillity to assure his plane is airworthy before taking it up but, come on, the mechanic has to bear at least a little responsibillity for doing a job correctly. I wonder how the FAA is going to dole out the punishments for this accident.

You know one of the very first B-17's was lost because the ailerons were backward. It always amazed me that even the test pilots didn't look out and confirm left was left.
Have you seen the picture of the turbine Caribou, in test flight status that took off with the control lock in?

zane wrote:

Capt. Kirk wrote:There was a discussion awhile ago about not being able to nose a plane into the dirt by using full down elevator on take off. I guess we know the answer to that question...at least for the M7.

I have a feeling it was a throttle > roll > try to bring tail up, but take off it 3 point attitude at slow speed because of inadvertent up elevator, when down was intended to bring tail up. They prob got a little airborne, went with it, pulled back to climb and stuffed it in.

I don't think it's exactly the same scenario we were discussing in the other thread, because I'm going to speculate that they were off the ground.

That could be...I had envisioned it a little differently. Full throttle....tail comes up with trim setting...get to rotation speed...pull some up elevator (nose goes down)...pull more up (nose goes more down)...etc.

I fly into Spanish Fork Utah quite often and have seen this twin engine experimental jet a couple of times. Seems that between its last flight (total-2 dead) and the previous flight some work was done on the controls. http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/188617/ The planed rolled just a little after take off and the correction doomed the flight.

You Would think that test pilot would check this sort of thing before each flight. I do so now.

Tim

Let's see, w/o even looking, my runup checklist starts with:
1. Brakes set
2. Controls free and correct <------------- !!!!

I always look at ailerons, elevator and hard as it is to see, rudder (you can usually at least see a shadow or stick your head out the window).

I know of a Martin Mars, fresh out of maintainance, loaded to max gross and utilizing jato assist on its takeoff run on San Francisco Bay during WWII. They were on the step and at Vr but could not rotate with controls feeling "very heavy". Captain started rolling in elevator trim as the Bay Bridge was quickly approaching. Controls got heavier. Now at Vr plus 15 to 20 kts and looking like it's time to either abort (hard to do with jato's still burning) when it dawns on him to roll the trim the opposite direction. About 1/2 way through the trim range the Mars lept off the water like a homesick angel (always loved that term) and cleared the Bay Bridge with an easy 50 feet to spare, much to the thrill of the crew not to mention the cars on the Bay Bridge. Elevator trim rigged backwards. Another thing to triple check out of maintainance (and keep in mind it's sorta' counter to what you might think until you really study how the trim will work to deflect the larger elevator surface)

BTW, I have an old friend that was an engineer / radioman on the Martin Mars and PBY's during WWII. He has some wonderful stories, worthy of a book.

Mark

Kirk,

I take it the mechanic is the one towards the south end, just north of all the t hangars?

If so, it figures.

Nevertheless, it is still the pilot in command's responsibility to.....

And all that jazz.

Still.....

MTV

Whoever it was, I just don't think they are a mechanic anymore. May not own much before too long either. How bad does negligence have to get before it becomes criminal? I don't know, wouldn't this qualify?

If it's the guy I'm thinking of, he's probably done worse. Most folks think the FAA will pull an A & P certificate in a heartbeat. They only do that to GOOD mechanics, actually.

MTV

Surely they would pull it for something that Gross, wouldn't they? I've seen one suspended for not much. I always assumed the incident that I knew about was one of several that led to the suspension.

Most of us have seen mechanics/IAs make serious mistakes like this. The important thing is that the plane was legal. All inspections, 337s, STCs, etc. were properly done and filed with the FAA. All of the work was done by an FAA certified shop. The weight of the paperwork equaled the weight of the plane. With all of this, it is not possible for the plane to have crashed. How could it?

This reminds me of one of Richard Bach's stories.

flyer

mtv wrote:Kirk,

I take it the mechanic is the one towards the south end, just north of all the t hangars?

If so, it figures.

Nevertheless, it is still the pilot in command's responsibility to.....

And all that jazz.

Still.....

MTV

Yep, that's the one.

mtv wrote:If it's the guy I'm thinking of, he's probably done worse. Most folks think the FAA will pull an A & P certificate in a heartbeat. They only do that to GOOD mechanics, actually.

MTV

This is so true! I've witnessed it first hand.
My mechanic is currently working on a plane that just came out of this guys shop. It took over $4000 worth of parts plus the labor to make it airworthy. There were automotive switches and fuel lines used. Automotive brake lines used. The tail wheel (including the forks) were worn beyond repair...etc.
It just amazes me.

I just had a similar problem from a different mechanic on Chena Marina. I got my Citabria out of Annual expecting everything to be great only to find on my inspection that the hose that connects the intake to the carb box is just jammed in there and not routing the air from the intake to the carb box, so that as soon as I went to fly I am sure it would have sucked it into the carb box and suffocated the engine on take off, or worse on a go around. The aircraft is fouling plugs like crazy so I have a different mechanic look at it and discover the plugs are gapped to over twice what is allowed. The mixture screw is completely bottomed out to maximum. The carpet has just been jammed in there and is not layed in around all the trim and other pieces like it should be, he has repaired on hole in the fabric and the other he taped then never silvered or painted it. There is a new hole that I am pretty sure was not there before, and a ton of other little things.

After he tells me I am done and I move the aircraft out of his yard while he is finishing up the paperwork only to get a call that he forgot to do some inspection on the engine and he will not be able to do it for a few weeks so my choice is to let it sit grounded for a few weeks or pay another mechanic to take off all the cowling and parts that were already off during the annual to finish up the last inspection, then pay for all those parts and cowling to be reinstalled a second time.

What options do we have for dealing with something like that? More than me just getting screwed by the guy, it is just unsafe for people to be sending out airplanes like this.

I realize that the pilot in command is responsible for determining whether the aircraft is in condition for safe flight, but how can we as PIC's be sure of that when we do not do our own maintainence and in most cases would not know what to look for anyway. I am not allowed to pull apart the aircraft and look at the insides of things but I have to determine if it is air worthy? At what point does the responsibility fall on the maintainer?

Mike

redlinemike


Your Citabria is a fairly simple plane to maintain. You can pull it apart. Spark plugs are very easy to gap. Compression checks, timing, etc. are also pretty straightforward. This is not brain surgery. Changing the oil is also easy.

I am sure that you could do better than many mechanics. Owners are normally more careful since it is their life that is on the line.

Or you could continue to put your life in the hands of someone else.

Take care

flyer

What I know how to do and what I can do legally are very different things. Of course I can handle the basics lined out in part 43, but I am refering to all the stuff I am not allowed to do.

redlinemike

You are correct. Just make sure that the paperwork weight equals the weight of the plane. You can relax knowing that if all of the paperwork is correct and the plane is legal, nothing could possibly go wrong. go wrong.

flyer