Zzz wrote:For you guys that taxi up to the automobile pumps: What do you bond the aircraft with? Do you carry a bonding wire with you?

I make sure nozzle touches fill port on the 182. But that makes me think a little. Technically at gas stations, the hose in the retracted position is not supposed to touch the ground. At Dell, where two of the pics were taken they have an extra long hose. If it was made up at Pep Boys it probably does not have a ground. 10 feet of wire with two alligator clips is a small investment compared to my new 430W

Tim

Zzz wrote:For you guys that taxi up to the automobile pumps: What do you bond the aircraft with? Do you carry a bonding wire with you?

What do you bond your automobile with? Different with an airplane taxied up why?

Gump

GumpAir wrote:

Zzz wrote:For you guys that taxi up to the automobile pumps: What do you bond the aircraft with? Do you carry a bonding wire with you?

What do you bond your automobile with? Different with an airplane taxied up why?

Gump

I always wondered why people fueling cars and trucks didn't make as big a deal about bonding as we do in the aircraft world. It seems the risk is the same for having static discharge arc ignite some fuel vapors. Are the fuel hoses at the aviation pumps not bonded hose too?

Zzz wrote:

GumpAir wrote:

Zzz wrote:For you guys that taxi up to the automobile pumps: What do you bond the aircraft with? Do you carry a bonding wire with you?

What do you bond your automobile with? Different with an airplane taxied up why?

Gump

I always wondered why people fueling cars and trucks didn't make as big a deal about bonding as we do in the aircraft world. It seems the risk is the same for having static discharge arc ignite some fuel vapors. Are the fuel hoses at the aviation pumps not bonded hose too?

I've seen folks not ground their airplane but touch the nozzle tip to a piece of metal before starting to flow fuel. I suppose once you release the (potential) static spark created from pulling the hose out you're good to go?!

It kind of reminds me of sliding my feet on the carpet on a dry day and sticking my finger out to shock my brothers when I was a kid. Once the spark was gone it was gone until I created another one by sliding my feet again. That was funner than having an airplane explode though

CW

2" male camlock fitting on each drum 2", female camlock fitting on the pump makes it real easy, quick disconnect on the hose and pump makes it all real easy to handle too.

Thanks for the tip. My mind was stuck on using something threaded like a union, etc. Just ordered some cam & groove couplings.

Zzz wrote:

GumpAir wrote:

Zzz wrote:For you guys that taxi up to the automobile pumps: What do you bond the aircraft with? Do you carry a bonding wire with you?

What do you bond your automobile with? Different with an airplane taxied up why?

Gump

I always wondered why people fueling cars and trucks didn't make as big a deal about bonding as we do in the aircraft world. It seems the risk is the same for having static discharge arc ignite some fuel vapors. Are the fuel hoses at the aviation pumps not bonded hose too?

My hose on my 100 gallon bed tank has BONDED printed right on it. I buy my Mogas at Pacific Pride. Their hose says bonded. Next time I get 100 LL I'm going to look at the hose.

Cheers

Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:http://nciaai.com/articles/doc_download/8-static-electricity

This is a scary report. Trying to synthesize what it says into practical terms, it's saying that aircraft should be separately bonded because bonding hoses are inadequate, that refilling small plastic containers very slowly is recommended, that refueling cars wouldn't be a problem except that manufacturers have started using too many plastic parts in the fuel receptacles, and that the risk of an explosion still exists no matter what, although bonding hoses and bonding cables can minimize that risk. Ack!

That still gets back to Z's issue, that if you're going to drive your airplane up to a mogas pump (or any other pump), best to separately bond the two together with a separate cable. It's not just to save the avionics--it's to save the whole blessed airplane, and even then, there's no iron-clad guarantee.

Cary

OregonMaule wrote:My hose on my 100 gallon bed tank has BONDED printed right on it. I buy my Mogas at Pacific Pride. Their hose says bonded. Next time I get 100 LL I'm going to look at the hose.

Cheers

I think the only thing that bonded fuel hose does is to help static generated by the flowing fuel to dissipate more readily, vs pure rubber hose which can retain static longer until a big discharge. While the bonded fuel hose may help the issue by adding some layer or mesh of conductive material to help the static dissipate, the problem of having a potential between the filler nozzle and its shroud of fuel vapors, and the aircraft itself, still exists.

We're lucky that fueling accidents happen so rarely. I think the atmospheric conditions and other factors have to be just right to make the static discharge possible, and even then the discharge has to be of a certain magnitude to act as an ignition. It did happen to one of my old instructors though. Better safe than sorry. As to why it's safe in a conventional automobile fueling operation, I'm still not sure. Either static is not being allowed to build up because of the fancy hose, or it's being discharged at first contact of the filler nozzle with the car.

So, a couple different scenarios:

-Fueling cars from pump
-Fueling cans from pump
-Fueling aircraft from pump
-Fueling aircraft from truck
-Fueling aircraft from cans

Each of these has its own consideration that can often turn this topic into 20 pages of forum thread.

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf95512323.pdf

Zzz wrote:Each of these has its own consideration that can often turn this topic into 20 pages of forum thread.

2 down, only 18 more to go!

My theory:

Before fuel transfer: Equalize electric potential on all fueling equipment where there is no fuel vapor present. Basically shorting everything before fuel vapor is preset. Once it's equalized KEEP IT shorted! Then transfer fuel.

Or keep resistance high enough to preclude equalibrium.

Just thinking out loud here. Would it make more sense to attach the grounding cable to the aircraft fuel tank filler neck rather than to the aircraft exhaust pipe?

SkySteve wrote:Just thinking out loud here. Would it make more sense to attach the grounding cable to the aircraft fuel tank filler neck rather than to the aircraft exhaust pipe?

The fuel filler neck better have the cap installed (and it's vent closed if vented). It would be a very bad place to make sparks! I would find a temporary ground farther from fuel fumes that is electrically tied in.

I known of one case where the ground strap was omitted accidentally after an engine overhaul. The engine ground path went trough the throttle linkage and metlled it. Very dangerous. Throttle linkage was replaced twice until it was noticed the ground strap from the engine to the frame was missing. Clipping the fueling ground cable to the exhaust may not of worked.

I use a 100 gallon transfer tank with a 12V electric pump.

32 years in the fire service. I never saw static spark start a fire. For me it is just not an issue. Knocking on wood now.

Now filling a hot small engine, fire yes. Smoking while filling, fire yes yes yes. Filling in the garage by a gas hot water heater, fire yep. Starting inside fire place with gas, seen it, bad idea. Starting bar b q with gas, seen it, bad idea.

Filling airplanes, cars, cans. Nope.

G'Day

Areas with small dewpoint/temperature spreads have very little chance of static sparks. Never seen static sparks in Hawaii over 40 years. But, Arizona, Nevada sparks are real common and dangerous.

Apparently there has been a small increase in gas station refueling fires. It happens when a person gets back in their car during fueling and then goes back to touch the fuel handle. Whamo! It most always happens to women. Women are more likely to get back in their car during the refueling and check their phone. Some thought that cell phones add into the mix. Still its like 10 a year out of millions of fill ups.

OregonMaule wrote:I use a 100 gallon transfer tank with a 12V electric pump.

32 years in the fire service. I never saw static spark start a fire. For me it is just not an issue. Knocking on wood now.

Now filling a hot small engine, fire yes. Smoking while filling, fire yes yes yes. Filling in the garage by a gas hot water heater, fire yep. Starting inside fire place with gas, seen it, bad idea. Starting bar b q with gas, seen it, bad idea.

Filling airplanes, cars, cans. Nope.

G'Day

I've seen it happen (static charged fuel fires) with high octane race fuel 3 times. All three times is when somebody was transferring fuel from a 15 gallon steel drum to a 5 gallon plastic fuel can. One fire was on concrete and the other two were on asphalt. All three were in very dry climates and three separate race tracks (1 at Daytona, 1 at Fontana and 1 at Miller MSP).

Waterboy wrote:Apparently there has been a small increase in gas station refueling fires. It happens when a person gets back in their car during fueling and then goes back to touch the fuel handle. Whamo! It most always happens to women. Women are more likely to get back in their car during the refueling and check their phone. Some thought that cell phones add into the mix. Still its like 10 a year out of millions of fill ups.

Wow! At least she stayed calm and didn't completely freak out like most probably would.

Waterboy wrote:Apparently there has been a small increase in gas station refueling fires. It happens when a person gets back in their car during fueling and then goes back to touch the fuel handle. Whamo! It most always happens to women. Women are more likely to get back in their car during the refueling and check their phone. Some thought that cell phones add into the mix. Still its like 10 a year out of millions of fill ups.

Most if not all filling stations have a sign that says remain outside the vehicle, stop the engine, and no smoking.

This will happen on anything. Plane, car, boat. If you take your hand off the nozzle you need to touch the body of the car above and away from the nozzle. Gas fumes are heaver than air and will sink. We have all been in climates where you take 2 steps on carpet and get zapped hard when the finger goes to ground. The simple movement of sliding across the car seat to get out will cause static spark when a body goes to ground, like touching the nozzle.

Never fill the removable gas tanks in a boat. The fumes fill the hull and that makes for a deadly explosion.

I don't use a ground wire from my truck. I always touch my finger to the plane and the nozzle to the plane, away from tank. Then I open the cap and fill. When I move my ladder to the 2-3-4 tank I repeat the process.

As Ron White says you can't fix stupid. Knocking on wood now.

OregonMaule wrote:

Waterboy wrote:Apparently there has been a small increase in gas station refueling fires. It happens when a person gets back in their car during fueling and then goes back to touch the fuel handle. Whamo! It most always happens to women. Women are more likely to get back in their car during the refueling and check their phone. Some thought that cell phones add into the mix. Still its like 10 a year out of millions of fill ups.

Most if not all filling stations have a sign that says remain outside the vehicle, stop the engine, and no smoking.

This will happen on anything. Plane, car, boat. If you take your hand off the nozzle you need to touch the body of the car above and away from the nozzle. Gas fumes are heaver than air and will sink. We have all been in climates where you take 2 steps on carpet and get zapped hard when the finger goes to ground. The simple movement of sliding across the car seat to get out will cause static spark when a body goes to ground, like touching the nozzle.

Never fill the removable gas tanks in a boat. The fumes fill the hull and that makes for a deadly explosion.

I don't use a ground wire from my truck. I always touch my finger to the plane and the nozzle to the plane, away from tank. Then I open the cap and fill. When I move my ladder to the 2-3-4 tank I repeat the process.

As Ron White says you can't fix stupid. Knocking on wood now.

She kinda looks like she'd make a spark without any static electricity