At the backcountry/STOL seminars I've been a part of I've put a lot of emphasis on one-way strips being truly one way and what that means,. Also about not allowing yourself to feel pressured to land somewhere just because your buddies are. And just as importantly if you are a flight lead to only go where the least experienced pilot of your group can safely go.

This video illustrates what happens when any of these are not adhered to. Glad the pilot survived and glad he rebuilt his plane. Good things to think about in this video.

Thanks for posting this. There's a lot of good info and food for thought. One thing I didn't hear, either in their discussions about the preflight planning or in the aftermath, was talk about determining a safe abort point on the approach and the proper missed approach procedure. Whatever that point is for Dewey Moore, he obviously went past it. Despite the steep and narrow canyon along Big Creek, the gradient of the stream itself is surprisingly gradual, so--at a certain point agl on the approach--it should be possible to turn upstream and climb until you have sufficient altitude and then either bug out or set up for another try. Turning around inside that little alcove was too much, obviously. I'd be curious to hear from others familiar with this approach where that abort point is, and how they determined it.

CAVU

A very good point about the early abort point, CAVU. I would add to what they mentioned, in their very good post flight, training and currency is often insufficient. Initial training is certainly insufficient. Concurrent training, outside airline and military generally does not exist, and recurrent training in the form of flight review is generally inadequate to this and similar situations.

My advice to all, that l rant about biweekly, is to make good technique default. If every takeoff and every landing is default good short field, really short should not be upsetting.

Finally there is the Jedi mind trick. Using really tired Ag planes on really short strips and small fields, I developed the attitude that the engine is going to quit on this particular takeoff and on this particular pull up out of the field. I mean I really believed it. Going under wires, I really meant, once committed, that I would go under regardless of what showed up.

I lost engines and I hit wires. My survival, I believe, was partly due to that commitment. I was not upset.

I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

skiermanmike wrote:I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

Ok. I'll bite. The accident pilot hadn't been into the strip before. The others had been in previously, one of them on the day before. The video doesn't talk about how much of a briefing they did before flying in there. It doesn't say they didn't talk about it. I'm going to assume that the rest of your post is intended as a joke, except for the "horrible accident" part, which is true enough. Where is San Pedro, Idaho, anyway? Raise the drawbridge, quick.

CAVU

CAVU,
Apparently you missed the part where Jim Richmond asks Tom on short final if he had been there before. A little late for that question. Implies no briefing or an inadequate one. Didn't even get the rhubarb!

Going with someone who had been there prior would have been best, but things look a lot different from the back of a Cub. Getting rid of a lot of potential energy of altitude is helpful, but steeper is fine if we are slow enough to mush without a lot of power.

My question would be "are you currently and consistently touching down slowly and softly on the numbers with power controlling the exact spot?" We don't rise to the occasion. We fly mostly just like we have been flying. I mean on the numbers every time. Why practice landing long, if we're doing this kind of stuff. OK, hover taxi to a good spot on a rough or soft surface with plenty of room. Whatever these kinds of situations, closing the throttle should mean touching down.

It's hard not to armchair quarterback in these situations, but like everyone else said - it comes down to preparedness. Anytime going into a challenging new strip, especially DM, one should avail themselves to all info they can. Seems like a good long conversation with the more experienced guys could've helped to prevent this. Knowing the topography of where you're flying goes a long way; he could've flown the canyon to where it opens up near monumental creek.

Having said that, everyone screws up occasionally. I count myself lucky that none of mine have turned out like this...

A good map recon and knowing ingress and egress for all drainage along the route is minimum essential for almost all mountains flying. I got stumped in British Columbia where the drainage is a fjord or flat bottom glacier carved valleys. When I don't know which way is downhill in the mountains, I come unglued.

skiermanmike wrote:I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

One way strips....kind of self explanatory. Tight canyon, ditto.

1)The options downstream and upstream offer better hunting, fishing, hiking, and camping access than Acorn Creek (DM). They also offer better approach, departure, and surface conditions.

2) Rhubarb is within a few stone throws of anywhere in the Big Creek drainage. Anyone that thinks they have to go to DM to "get rhubarb" either a) hasn't managed or is unable to amble more than 50 yards away from an airstrip back there, or b) is just saying "hold my beer".

CAVU wrote:

skiermanmike wrote:I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

Ok. I'll bite. The accident pilot hadn't been into the strip before. The others had been in previously, one of them on the day before. The video doesn't talk about how much of a briefing they did before flying in there. It doesn't say they didn't talk about it. I'm going to assume that the rest of your post is intended as a joke, except for the "horrible accident" part, which is true enough. Where is San Pedro, Idaho, anyway? Raise the drawbridge, quick.

CAVU

Not a joke. All I’m saying is that something like 2/3rds of all backcountry accidents in Idaho are from out of state pilots. If you must crash, crash in your own state and don’t give the environmentalists/government one more reason to shut us down.

They broke sooo many rules of thumb:
- no briefing, apparently
- he said he hit the “send” button on their PLB/SPOT at 12:04 which suggests they were landing around noon.
- Just strip-bagged Cabin Creek which is bad wilderness etiquette.
- Flying around in a large groups is bad etiquette in the wilderness.
- the victim’s discussion about how power would save him is just a head-shaker.
- Cavalier attitude about hunting rhubarb was still on display in the video, obviously didn’t take this one seriously enough to mention how important this one was to their friend.

This was preventable. They weren’t being good stewards of the wilderness, and they handed the gov/environmentalists their absolute favorite piece of evidence for shutting down the “big four” airstrips which are always controversial. The only way they could have done it better would have been to start a forest fire.

There are way too many people in the Frank. It’s just a matter of time before our freedoms there are curtailed and this is the type of incident that’ll do it. That’s why I find it frustrating.

Are these strips private, county, state, or federal?

Federal. And protected tenuously at best.

No surprise at the outcome here. The airstrips can be accessed with moderate skills and good judgement. They've gotten to be hilariously hyped up as some sort of criterion of a "bush pilot badge". I'll never understand why people want to go to that particular strip. It really sucks, and is pretty pointless beyond the hold-my-beer crowd. At least Mile Hi is high enough to be a tad cooler and has a bit of a view, and gives on a head start to get to interesting hunting or hiking areas. Dewey Moore is just a joke. Everyone talks it up like a great emergency strip. If a person had an actual emergency, I think anyone who would view it as a better asset than Cabin Cr or Vines would need a LOT of beers before they could say that with a straight face. In an actual emergency, it's a place to plan on rolling up your airplane into a ball marginally better than the other undeveloped rock bars and hopefully tell your grandkids. Flying perfectly functional airplanes into is fine, but wouldn't people rather fly into nice places without making a stultifyingly puzzling hero video recalling a hold-my-beer moment a thing?

I'm no expert on one way strips but in the video they describe the pilot electing to drift off to the left of the strip before making his turn. Had he hugged the mountain on the right side of the strip he would have had much more room for his left turn to have any sort of chance to get out of the valley. Maybe making the angle of bank required for the turn not as steep and to keep that pesky spiral / stall away a little more. Maybe I'm missing what happened though but it's a fairly basic mountain flying thing.

Anyone know status of the Stebnite mine strip? Don't want to bag it.....but tie up for the day and ride my bike upstream far as possible. Rode from JC to there, Stebnite, a few weeks ago, and saw road continues so now need to check it out further! Don't want to start from JC though next time.. Easy strip, talking about permission, or maybe just do it? Sometimes that is better, not having someone say yes, and then they feel responsible, don't want that. Ran into 2 mine guys last trip, super friendly, like they realize the mine is on public ground, so have at it?! Best guess is it wouldn't be an issue, what you think skiermike?

skiermanmike wrote:

CAVU wrote:

skiermanmike wrote:I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

Ok. I'll bite. The accident pilot hadn't been into the strip before. The others had been in previously, one of them on the day before. The video doesn't talk about how much of a briefing they did before flying in there. It doesn't say they didn't talk about it. I'm going to assume that the rest of your post is intended as a joke, except for the "horrible accident" part, which is true enough. Where is San Pedro, Idaho, anyway? Raise the drawbridge, quick.

CAVU

Not a joke. All I’m saying is that something like 2/3rds of all backcountry accidents in Idaho are from out of state pilots. If you must crash, crash in your own state and don’t give the environmentalists/government one more reason to shut us down.

They broke sooo many rules of thumb:
- no briefing, apparently
- he said he hit the “send” button on their PLB/SPOT at 12:04 which suggests they were landing around noon.
- Just strip-bagged Cabin Creek which is bad wilderness etiquette.
- Flying around in a large groups is bad etiquette in the wilderness.
- the victim’s discussion about how power would save him is just a head-shaker.
- Cavalier attitude about hunting rhubarb was still on display in the video, obviously didn’t take this one seriously enough to mention how important this one was to their friend.

This was preventable. They weren’t being good stewards of the wilderness, and they handed the gov/environmentalists their absolute favorite piece of evidence for shutting down the “big four” airstrips which are always controversial. The only way they could have done it better would have been to start a forest fire.

There are way too many people in the Frank. It’s just a matter of time before our freedoms there are curtailed and this is the type of incident that’ll do it. That’s why I find it frustrating.

As I understood from the video, it was 4 guys in 3 airplanes, hardly a large group, unless we are supposed to fly Idaho solo. As far as "bagging" strips, is there something wrong with exploring and going to other strips? How does one explore without landing at various strips? I intend to go to Idaho for my first time in the next couple of weeks, I am hoping to have 2 other planes with me, one at least with familiarity of the area and procedures. I also intend to explore as much as possible, I am not going to go to Idaho so I can land at one strip and stay there for a few days, I don't believe that's what anyone goes to Idaho for.
We also do not know that there was no briefing, that could be the case, but we do not know that for a fact. As far as most crashes in Idaho being out of state residents, statistically that is likely how it should be. Idaho is not a highly populated state, but also draws a lot of people to it because of what it is. I don't have any numbers, but I would suspect that the number of flight hours in Idaho by non residents vs residents would probably show that the crashes are not grossly out of proportion to the hours flown.

I have met Todd, I met him at an RAF event. He is a board member of the RAF and as I understand it, is the one behind the new branding for the RAF. As far as I can tell, he is passionate about all the RAF does and is doing, not watching. He is not an inexperienced pilot, but does admit in the video that he wasn't recently current in that type of flying. My guess is that he joined in the making of this video to help others learn from his mistakes. I would also be surprised if making that video was an easy thing for him to do.
I watch a lot of Air Safety Institute videos, there is plenty to be learned, especially by someone like me with minimal time. The one thing that stands out to me in almost all the videos is the cause of the accidents, it is almost always poor decision making. I am sure Todd realizes as much as anyone that his near death experience was the result of several bad decisions, and like in most other videos, its one bad decision in the beginning that leads to more as the situation evolves.
I am struck by the desire to throw some people under the bus, or to imply that anyone not from Idaho should stay away.

courierguy wrote:Anyone know status of the Stebnite mine strip?

As of 6/5/19: Mine is being redeveloped. Strip is closed.

I’ve talked to Stibnite recently and can confirm it is closed to the public because - guess what! - somebody had a “incident” with mine personnel on the runway.

Yes, I think groups of more than 1 in the Frank (or any wilderness) is too many. These places are not aerial motocross parks. You wouldn’t even ask this question if we were considering flying to
a national park like Yellowstone or Yosemite, but in actuality, wilderness is intended to be far more protected than National Parks: National Parks are developed for enjoyment and allow the construction of trails and lodges and RV spots. Wilderness was intended to be places “untrammeled by man” - using a wheelbarrow is off limits in wilderness. Literally. That’s why they mow with mule teams.

StillLearning wrote:

skiermanmike wrote:

CAVU wrote:

skiermanmike wrote:I find this whole situation frustrating. Here’s bunch of out of state guys bopping around in carbon cubs, bagging strips, hunting rhubarb, taking their friends into places they don’t really have any business being, and not even briefing them about the strip? This is like everything that’s wrong with backcountry flying today, punctuated by a horrible accident.

Ok. I'll bite. The accident pilot hadn't been into the strip before. The others had been in previously, one of them on the day before. The video doesn't talk about how much of a briefing they did before flying in there. It doesn't say they didn't talk about it. I'm going to assume that the rest of your post is intended as a joke, except for the "horrible accident" part, which is true enough. Where is San Pedro, Idaho, anyway? Raise the drawbridge, quick.

CAVU

Not a joke. All I’m saying is that something like 2/3rds of all backcountry accidents in Idaho are from out of state pilots. If you must crash, crash in your own state and don’t give the environmentalists/government one more reason to shut us down.

They broke sooo many rules of thumb:
- no briefing, apparently
- he said he hit the “send” button on their PLB/SPOT at 12:04 which suggests they were landing around noon.
- Just strip-bagged Cabin Creek which is bad wilderness etiquette.
- Flying around in a large groups is bad etiquette in the wilderness.
- the victim’s discussion about how power would save him is just a head-shaker.
- Cavalier attitude about hunting rhubarb was still on display in the video, obviously didn’t take this one seriously enough to mention how important this one was to their friend.

This was preventable. They weren’t being good stewards of the wilderness, and they handed the gov/environmentalists their absolute favorite piece of evidence for shutting down the “big four” airstrips which are always controversial. The only way they could have done it better would have been to start a forest fire.

There are way too many people in the Frank. It’s just a matter of time before our freedoms there are curtailed and this is the type of incident that’ll do it. That’s why I find it frustrating.

As I understood from the video, it was 4 guys in 3 airplanes, hardly a large group, unless we are supposed to fly Idaho solo. As far as "bagging" strips, is there something wrong with exploring and going to other strips? How does one explore without landing at various strips? I intend to go to Idaho for my first time in the next couple of weeks, I am hoping to have 2 other planes with me, one at least with familiarity of the area and procedures. I also intend to explore as much as possible, I am not going to go to Idaho so I can land at one strip and stay there for a few days, I don't believe that's what anyone goes to Idaho for.
We also do not know that there was no briefing, that could be the case, but we do not know that for a fact. As far as most crashes in Idaho being out of state residents, statistically that is likely how it should be. Idaho is not a highly populated state, but also draws a lot of people to it because of what it is. I don't have any numbers, but I would suspect that the number of flight hours in Idaho by non residents vs residents would probably show that the crashes are not grossly out of proportion to the hours flown.

I have met Todd, I met him at an RAF event. He is a board member of the RAF and as I understand it, is the one behind the new branding for the RAF. As far as I can tell, he is passionate about all the RAF does and is doing, not watching. He is not an inexperienced pilot, but does admit in the video that he wasn't recently current in that type of flying. My guess is that he joined in the making of this video to help others learn from his mistakes. I would also be surprised if making that video was an easy thing for him to do.
I watch a lot of Air Safety Institute videos, there is plenty to be learned, especially by someone like me with minimal time. The one thing that stands out to me in almost all the videos is the cause of the accidents, it is almost always poor decision making. I am sure Todd realizes as much as anyone that his near death experience was the result of several bad decisions, and like in most other videos, its one bad decision in the beginning that leads to more as the situation evolves.
I am struck by the desire to throw some people under the bus, or to imply that anyone not from Idaho should stay away.

Hey, do whatever you want. It’s a free country. Just know that this kind of hopping around, strip-bagging, aerial motocross use pisses everyone that’s not in a plane off, and there are tons of other wilderness users and they’re all out for blood. I know it seems like it’s desolate from the air, but if you spend 5 minutes on the ground you’ll quickly see that if you’re there for solutude and “the wilderness experience” the constant buzzing and low flying of planes is a major detraction. In other words, you’re contributing to the problem, and doing exactly what everyone complains about.

By the way, Stibnite is not on public land.