I commend Todd and the other guys for sharing the story. There’s lots of lessons to be learned from that experience. Kinda sad to learn that a guy from RAF was out strip bagging though.

Airplane etiquette in the wilderness is an issue we hash out every year. Unfortunately strip bagging is a ton of fun and people are selfish; it’s not going to stop until rules/fines are put in place to deter it. Those rules are coming. Skiermanmikes presentation may be lacking but the issues he presents are real. I’m a fairly heavy user of the wilderness and when I’m in there on my raft I hate the airplanes; I try to remember that when I’m flying and I try to speak positively about the airplanes with the people I encounter while boating. Sometimes that isn’t easy especially when a pilot is making poor decisions. One example is the pilot that was practicing landing at Moose Creek, after 5 landings/takeoffs they finally left.

I try to look at it from all sides and appreciate that ID is an attractive place to fly. To me it compares to Jeeping in Moab. It’s a ton of fun and something I used to do twice a year. I don’t have a Jeep but I could run all but the hardest trails in my pickup. After a few years I realized my poor decision to wheel in my pickup was trashing the trails and leaving a bad taste in other users mouths; probably literally. I certainly wasn’t purposefully doing those things, I just didn’t know any better.

The pilots coming to Idaho to fly aren’t purposefully trying to hurt airplane access they just don’t understand the issues because they aren’t here firing the battles, hearing the complaints and trying to educate other pilots. Like I said, strip bagging is a ton of fun and most of that education goes right out the window once a pilot bags their first strip.

Recent example:

https://www.postregister.com/news/local/marble-creek-airstrip-angers-wilderness-advocates/article_c89057f2-756f-5df7-b906-c1c6b5f50d69.html

skiermanmike wrote:
Hey, do whatever you want. It’s a free country. Just know that this kind of hopping around, strip-bagging, aerial motocross use pisses everyone that’s not in a plane off, and there are tons of other wilderness users and they’re all out for blood. I know it seems like it’s desolate from the air, but if you spend 5 minutes on the ground you’ll quickly see that if you’re there for solutude and “the wilderness experience” the constant buzzing and low flying of planes is a major detraction. In other words, you’re contributing to the problem, and doing exactly what everyone complains about.
...

I agree. The backcountry airstrips were grandfathered into the wilderness act as wilderness trailheads...a place for people to begin accessing the wilderness, not a place for people to practice their mountain flying prowess. It was a hell of a good compromise, and a piece of legislation that deserves our respect.

It's worth fighting to keep these WILDERNESS airstrips open, but I don't know how any rational person can justify it to the public if the vast majority of air traffic is by people who don't even stay long enough to let their engine cool. Someone's going to get the bright idea of parking observers or putting trail cameras at all the contested wilderness airstrips and documenting to the minute how they're used, and I don't think the results are going to be in alignment with the original compromise responsible for keeping them open in the first place.

Laws are passed or amended to address the actions of people who ignore the intent of the law, feeling that all they are really accountable to is the letter of the law. The intent of grandfathering wilderness airstrips into the Frank was not so they could become aerial motocross arenas. If that's how they end up being utilized, even I couldn't argue against the people who want them closed.

whee wrote:I commend Todd and the other guys for sharing the story. There’s lots of lessons to be learned from that experience. Kinda sad to learn that a guy from RAF was out strip bagging though.

Airplane etiquette in the wilderness is an issue we hash out every year. Unfortunately strip bagging is a ton of fun and people are selfish; it’s not going to stop until rules/fines are put in place to deter it. Those rules are coming. Skiermanmikes presentation may be lacking but the issues he presents are real. I’m a fairly heavy user of the wilderness and when I’m in there on my raft I hate the airplanes; I try to remember that when I’m flying and I try to speak positively about the airplanes with the people I encounter while boating. Sometimes that isn’t easy especially when a pilot is making poor decisions. One example is the pilot that was practicing landing at Moose Creek, after 5 landings/takeoffs they finally left.

I try to look at it from all sides and appreciate that ID is an attractive place to fly. To me it compares to Jeeping in Moab. It’s a ton of fun and something I used to do twice a year. I don’t have a Jeep but I could run all but the hardest trails in my pickup. After a few years I realized my poor decision to wheel in my pickup was trashing the trails and leaving a bad taste in other users mouths; probably literally. I certainly wasn’t purposefully doing those things, I just didn’t know any better.

The pilots coming to Idaho to fly aren’t purposefully trying to hurt airplane access they just don’t understand the issues because they aren’t here firing the battles, hearing the complaints and trying to educate other pilots. Like I said, strip bagging is a ton of fun and most of that education goes right out the window once a pilot bags their first strip.

Very well spoken. Generally no one enjoys airplanes/dirtbikes/side-by-sides/quads/etc except the people in them at the time.

Go camp, fish, hike, nap, bike, paddle, hunt rhubarb, or something if you're there. Don't let flying an airplane be the only thing you enjoy in the wilderness, that makes you a pretty boring person. Don't be a boring person.

Not a joke. All I’m saying is that something like 2/3rds of all backcountry accidents in Idaho are from out of state pilots

While I doubt I will ever have the skills to even think about going to Idaho to land my plane I have spent many a day climbing the Mountains in your state.
I'm not from Idaho but I am just as welcome at Dewey More or any other federal land that you are. I have heard this argument from the Pricks in the Tetons too.
Its federal land ... maintained by Federal Tax dollars. So get over yourself. That fat beer guzzling guy from Hoboken NJ is just as welcome . Why ? Years of paying federal taxes . Firefighting, Wildlife laws enforcement, even keeping fence lines up. All federal tax dollars. Plowing in the winter ? That highway you used to get to your Plane? And most likely the last airport you sat down on ....federal tax Dollars

I live in San Diego I could be an ass and say - Hey You Zonies ( Derogative term SoCal residents use for describing those from Arizona) GO HOME
BUT I realize they are Americans......Veterans ect.
Unless your state has the budget to keep up that open land I would can the "out of state" bullshit.
Either that or don't ever leave Idaho

I'm feeling fortunate that I experienced Idaho from 1987 to 1999. In 87 the US population was 84 million less than it is today and no internet. I remember meeting a woman at Big Creek and we went camping at Indian Creek in mid August and we were the only airplane there. It was great but each time I returned, it was a little less fun. I've been into Cabin Creek with friends and I am guilty of strip bagging on that one but it was basically dead back then .I was kind of a friend of Mike Dorris and gone along on the mail run a couple of times but any more I am satisfied to play bush pilot at the airport here at home. I think instead of strip bagging, Barnstormer's event is a better deal for those that need to feel competitive. Put up the obstacles and compete away. Away from the Frank Church!!!!

I'm dismayed at the NIMBY arrogance I have seen from some in this particular thread. One of the most important freedoms we enjoy in this country is the ability to go from state to state without checkpoints. Complain about the actions of pilots, OK. Learn from their accidents so that we don't make the same mistakes, OK. Talk about training and experience, OK. But don't talk about state borders and out of staters causing the problems. Idaho is a beautiful part of our country, but it is not an independent republic. We live in the United States of America.

I'm not into strip bagging. I like to fly in, camp for a few days, and relax. But I don't have the right nor duty to tell anyone else what they can do with their airplanes, unless I see unsafe practices--and I don't view strip bagging as an unsafe practice, per se. Flying into a strip for the first time happens to each of us--it's a little hard to get experience without it.

Just because pilots choose to land somewhere for the challenge, as opposed to a purpose that happens to align with others' ideas of why airplanes should land, doesn't make them bad people. For many pilots, just landing is a challenge, until they build experience. That experience is a good thing. Similarly, landing on more and more challenging strips can be a good thing, as the experience gained often makes for better pilots.

Frankly, I applaud any pilot who has made a major mistake or perhaps a chain of them, lived to tell about it, and is willing to tell about it, especially publicly. It's not bragging to admit one's mistakes. It is humbling and embarrassing, especially when others on this and other forums respond with hyper-criticism. But it can be very helpful for others to hear about them, as none of us can live long enough to make all the possible mistakes ourselves.

So let's lighten up, and add Todd Simmons' experience to our own tools of experience. None of us is so good that we can't learn, whether from our own mistakes or those of others. The day we stop learning about aviation is the day we should stop participating in it.

Cary

Cary wrote:Just because pilots choose to land somewhere for the challenge, as opposed to a purpose that happens to align with others' ideas of why airplanes should land, doesn't make them bad people.

What if they deliberately ignore the pleas of those who are actually engaged in the fight to keep airstrips open? It kinda makes them bad people as they've chosen a moment of selfish indulgence versus a behavior that will benefit a longer scope that keeps airplanes in the Frank.

There's also the mentality of TIMBY...This Isn't MY Back Yard in which the Tragedy of Commons sometimes seems to prevail.

I am not a frequent poster, but I do make a trip from Washington to Idaho at least twice a year. Admittedly, I have landed at strips in the Frank without staying for a week, and I do like rhubarb.

My trips started 13 years ago, when my children were young. Johnson Creek is a magical place, and it was instrumental in shaping my two kids, and they both now love the wilderness and Idaho in particular.
Before I take my family to an aviation experience where I perceive elevated risk, I go fly it solo first. I used Galen's book, built a circuit of strips with low levels of difficulty, and then flew a morning circuit of ten strips, ending with Soldier Bar, Cabin Creek, and Lower Loon. I proved to myself that I could safely do the flying with my family and not kill them. Maybe that makes me a bagger, or alternatively, it kept me from killing my entire family.

I have landed and camped solo at Mile High, loved it, and don't need to post videos or pictures, as I have no social media presence. I did it for the challenge initially, but the reward of being truly alone in the wilderness is a beautiful thing. The silence, the stars, and the thought that wolves could eat me is a grounding event, and it makes you feel small in the universe. Idaho is a special place.

I was at Moose Creek a week ago with my now 23 year old son. We bought our gas in Idaho with out of state money, bought our out of state annual fishing licenses with out of state money, always leave out of state money in the donation box when one exists, and we will return in September to hunt deer with our out of state money paying for our out of state tags. We caught some Idaho cutthroat, and released them, cleaned up our campsite so well that it left no sign of our use, talked to some cool rafting folks, shared beer with other campers, and never once did anyone ask if we were out of state folks. I didn't get pissed that the rafters interrupted my fishing, and I didn't buzz anyone, or leave the prop in at 2,750 rpm on my IO-520 any longer than needed for a safe takeoff.

I don't like fly-in's with masses of people, but I don't begrudge those who do, I don't mind sharing a trail with horses or mules, I wave to all of the rafters with all of my fingers, and I love Idaho. I will likely live there in about seven years.

It is a big place, it belongs to all of us, and being a prick (noisy, trashy, drunk, entitled, fill in the blank) in Idaho is no more welcome than it is to be a prick anywhere else. Life is better when we go somewhere without being a prick. Prick is a word with many different definitions, and may be open for interpretation.

I don’t really mind if people think I’m a NIMBY prick. Yep, save your breath, I’m a jerk. But somebody has to say it: if we keep abusing our wilderness privileges we will lose them.

I don’t know why this community is so stubborn on this issue. Be smart. Be safe. Be courteous.

Back to the original point of this thread, these guys didn’t do any of the foregoing and in the process had a horrible accident and handed the airstrip opposition folks a platter full of red meat.

I’m calling them out-of-staters because that’s what they were - it’s just a fact. And it seems like people who aren’t here experiencing the tension are the most out of touch with how tenuous this relationship has been over the last three decades, and how much worse behavior our bunch engages in now compared to years ago when people were primarily using airstrips for access to the wilderness as they were intended, not just fun places to turn a gas into noise.

I was not trying to call anyone a prick, and was careful to say that people should be able to co-exist while utilizing a vast resource. It is best when we minimize our objectionable behavior, regardless of our Zip Code.

See, and there’s the fallacy. It’s not a vast resource. It’s a resource under constant pressure and use by hunters, rafters, backpackers, kayakers, sightsee-ers, horsemen, hikers, pilots, etc etc etc. and the ONLY one of them that gets to use a combustion engine is us, and for some reason we can’t understand why people find us obnoxious and want us out.

Can you imagine the reception you’d get if you got four of your friends, fired up your dirt bikes, and did laps around the campgrounds at 7am in Yellowstone until someone crashes and almost kills themselves? Cuz that’s pretty much what happens every weekend by pilots in the Frank (minus the crashing, thankfully).

Zzz wrote:

Cary wrote:Just because pilots choose to land somewhere for the challenge, as opposed to a purpose that happens to align with others' ideas of why airplanes should land, doesn't make them bad people.

What if they deliberately ignore the pleas of those who are actually engaged in the fight to keep airstrips open? It kinda makes them bad people as they've chosen a moment of selfish indulgence versus a behavior that will benefit a longer scope that keeps airplanes in the Frank.

There's also the mentality of TIMBY...This Isn't MY Back Yard in which the Tragedy of Commons sometimes seems to prevail.

"Deliberately" is the key word. What if it's just innocent ignorance? What offends some doesn't offend others at all. In today's society, I've observed that many of the loudest anti-this or that voices really don't do anything other than protest other folks' behavior, without any positive contribution themselves. So I guess I don't know--is there a well thought out movement to limit landings at several different airstrips in a day, or is it just a few who don't like others "bagging"? Is "bagging" really endangering keeping airstrips open? Is anyone with authority to do so, such as the Forest Service, Idaho Aeronautics, etc., actually moving toward limiting airstrips, or is that a Chicken Little the-sky-is-falling response of some--and again, I don't know.

For sure, there are those few who have that TIMBY view of life--we see it in the National Parks, the National Forests, even in private campgrounds, where they trash the place and don't clean up after themselves. Pilots aren't immune--be among the last to leave OSH some Sunday after Airventure, and see the trash left behind. But I don't like to paint any group with too broad a brush.

Just like in present day politics, in which this or that politician claims to speak for the people, I don't know what "the American people" want--I only know my own wants. In this case, I don't know what really is the common desire of all of those who are privileged to use the Idaho wilderness--all, not just a few. My guess is that there is no common desire, that each person has his/her wants and needs, just like the rest of society.

Cary

The comments I was responding to fall into three categories: airmanship, etiquette, and provincial prejudice.

On airmanship, there’s been a lot of trashing based on this video, assuming there’s nothing more to the story. There are some unanswered questions, and there are things in the video that suggest that the prep at best wasn't thorough. But I wouldn't assume there isn't more to the story than the editors put into the video. Fundamentally, OF COURSE he screwed up. That’s why he made the video.

On etiquette, I agree with most that’s been said about strip bagging and being considerate of other wilderness users. That said, there has to be a first time into a place for everyone, and that first time (for me) was usually dual instruction. Sometimes we shut down and got out for a minute. Sometimes we didn't. I was taught to do all of my tuneup flying outside of the wilderness, and I'm happy with that practice.

It should also be pointed out that some of these strips were MORE than trail heads historically. They were public use sites with picnic tables, pit toilets and fire rings. The USFS destroyed the picnic tables at Chamberlain and removed the hand tools that were needed to maintain the airstrip. That was in the 1990s, long after wilderness designation. The FC-RONR isn't the only wilderness area in the west, but it is the only wilderness where airplane access and camping were grandfathered in. IAA and RAF have been holding the line for years--on both sides. Everyone here should be a member and do what they can.

On provincial prejudice, Sierrasplitter nailed it. It takes a big man to make a video about how badly he screwed up so that others can watch and learn from his mistakes. Condemning him for liking rhubarb, flying a Carbon Cub, and being from out of state is irrelevant, petty and small minded.


CAVU

I assume the whiners are part of a solution, like:

Being members of the RAF or Idaho Aviation Association- and actually contributing time and money to support these organizations efforts and educate fellow pilots.

Traveling to AOPA Regional Events to conduct seminars on Idaho backcountry flying.

I'll bet they are going to Johnson Creek during the big fly-ins like the Skywagon and Super Cub events, and putting on a round table to discuss concerns about Idaho backcountry flying as well as encouraging membership and support of the above organizations.

Maybe publishing a blog on Idaho backcountry flying and etiquette.

Or are they just whining?

Rhetorical question.

rw2 wrote:

courierguy wrote:Anyone know status of the Stebnite mine strip?

As of 6/5/19: Mine is being redeveloped. Strip is closed.

The two Stibnite mine (proper spelling) employees I talked to didn't mention the strip closure, above their pay grade maybe. I'll cross it off my to do list, no huge loss but sorry to hear it nonetheless. I think I'll head to Warren instead, it has roads and trails leading out from it that look interesting, and it's been a few years since I flew in 4 solar panels (on the lift struts, two different trips a few weeks apart) to the old boy who is restoring the old dance hall there and I need to check in with him. The Frank is, frankly, way down on my list of places I like to fly to, other then once or twice a year, so many other places I can go without the restrictions there is why, though I really like knowing it's there. Whenever I happen to run across others in a remote area of any kind, doing whatever, IF they are local Idahoans,I always tell them "I'm from Salt Lake." A little Idaho/Utah humor there.....locals will get it.

On a ebike forum the other day, some yahoo claimed to know a pilot who got in BIG trouble (though unspecified) for simply HAVING a bike (of any kind) in the Frank. I told him I have had mine there before, having left Lower Loon, and landing at Soldier Bar to make some coffee. My contention was you/me, as a pilot can transport a bike in your airplane, into the wilderness area, even get it out, (which I did, to get at my camp stove in back, but I didn't even unfold the Montague) but you damn well better not turn a wheel much less ride it! I get that, I think he was uninformed, or jerking my chain. I was headed towards JC that day, why I had the bike along.

Well jeez, I was already a NIMBY hypocrite jerk, now I have to add small-minded and arrogant to the list. I’m really starting to get my feelers hurt!

I don’t really know what to say anymore. You guys want to make sure your children and grandchildren don’t get the opportunity to fly Idaho like you did? Keep it up. Knock yourself out. Ask the snowmobilers and the mountain bikers how well that went for them when push came to shove. And I need to “get over myself” - hah! My only request is that people fly with some respect.

Cary, I called them out-of-staters because that’s what they are, and that’s where most of the accidents come from. It’s just a fact. Maybe out of staters fly proportionally more hours here. So what? And yeah, it may just be “innocent ignorance” but would you use “innocent ignorance” to excuse someone trashing your campground or any other bad behavior? No?

SierraSplitter, stop putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying don’t go there, never did. Calm down.

And yeah, I’m a member of the IAA and all that, but honestly, I’m thinking of not renewing because I’m really not interested in supporting their “more is always better” approach to backcountry management.

I agree, it takes a big man to post a video like Todd Simmons did. I also think their giggly attitude about the whole thing is a pretty big turnoff. I further think he’s a public figure and should expect this kind of debate, especially if he’s serious about preserving our rights as pilots in the wilderness (which I didn’t get from the video, btw).

Yeah, I called them out as carbon-cubbers. Not because it really matters but because it’s illustrative of the aerial-motocross attitude. At the risk of SERIOUS broad-brushing (sorry), if there’s not a more abusive group of users than the carbon-cub / kitfox crowd then I don’t know what is. Sorry, I’m sure I’ll get a lot of hate mail on this one, fire away.

Oh, and I’m 99% sure the ebike guy was right. Even possessing a bike in the wilderness is a no-no. Does evergody understand that Wilderness (capital “W”) is a special - and THE most restrictive - land use designation? I know, I know, there goes my arrogance again.

I think you are spot on . It’s just nobody wants to hear it unfortunately .

low rider wrote:I think you are spot on . It’s just nobody wants to hear it unfortunately .

Thanks. Like I said, a stubborn bunch.

skiermanmike wrote:Oh, and I’m 99% sure the ebike guy was right. Even possessing a bike in the wilderness is a no-no.

Here are the rules: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 300616.pdf

"Motorized or mechanized transport of any kind, including motorcycles, mountain bicycles
game carts, jetskis, and hang gliders is not allowed. "

So, maybe you would get out of a ticket if your bike was packed in your plane and you could convince The Man of your intent to only use it when you returned to bike friendly areas, but strictly speaking it would indeed be a violation.