Backcountry Pilot • Red Dragon Pre-heater

Red Dragon Pre-heater

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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

mtv wrote:
Narwhal747 wrote:The Ryobi unit looks appealing. I am having a lot of problems locating a red dragon and might have to try that as an alternative.


There has to be a lot of Red Dragons laying around in AK. But that Ryobi unit might be a better design in any case.

MTV


Ah, yeah I just found out that AIH hardware sells new red dragons for $450, they just don't call them that. I think the little propane tank on the Ryobi might not last long enough to be practical, but I don't know. https://www.aih.com/storefrontCommerce/itemDetail.do?item-id=5466&item-number=FLA00064

There are a few ads for red dragons on craigs/alaskaslist but they're all old ads. Will probably buy a new one.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

BazzLow wrote:Another interesting option when away from home. 18V Lithium Battery / Propane forced air heater. Just need some flexible ducting.

https://www.ryobitools.com/power-tools/products/details/18v-one-plus-hybrid-forced-air-propane-heater

Image



I have used red dragons, a long time ago, and not on an airplane I owned. Let’s say I had one of these Ryobi heaters or a red dragon. Do I just put the very hot air coming out of these up through bottom of the cowl? Say with 4” alum tubing...Any concern about the fuel lines to the carb? Pretty hard to avoid the carb and lines but put hot air on the case...
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Good find on the the newly named Red Dragon. I thought we had lost all support. They were having trouble buying liability insurance and I thought they had ceased operation. This looks like the work around.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Anyone with red dragon experience: Is a 10 lb propane tank enough to get an hour or two of heat from a red dragon? Leaning toward that size so it could potentially be carried in the airplane for use at remote locations along with a small 12v battery.,
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Narwhal747 wrote:Anyone with red dragon experience: Is a 10 lb propane tank enough to get an hour or two of heat from a red dragon? Leaning toward that size so it could potentially be carried in the airplane for use at remote locations along with a small 12v battery.,

Yes...... when I was under instruction in Willow Alaska... talk about cold! Many mornings it was thirty below zero when I arrived at the airport...around 6 am...using a good insulated cowl cover, 25 pound bottle of propane and a 12 volt Aerovoltz battery would warm up the engine nicely. Training lasted 19 days, refilled that bottle twice. The battery was my back up for the Pacer. It wasn’t a good choice for the Red Dragon heater...but it worked...is big enough to crank an IO520....but doesn’t have the reserve energy of a large marine battery. So get a good battery.


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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Great, so at those temps how long did you preheat for with the red dragon? an hour? So your 25 pound bottle lasted about 10 hours of heating time would you say?
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Pinecone wrote:Good find on the the newly named Red Dragon. I thought we had lost all support. They were having trouble buying liability insurance and I thought they had ceased operation. This looks like the work around.


As far as I know, the Red Dragon was always manufactured and marketed by Flame Engineering. So, looks like now they're just using the company name.

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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

I Have a new to me Red Dragon. Looks like it has never been run. I will get some 4" ducting, an elbow and a little SCAT tubing. My 182 has no cowl flaps and was wondering the best place to aim the hot air. Was thinking of putting it in one of the cowl air inlets. That way the hot air would be forced down past the engine and out the bottom air outlet area.

Would leave in one cowl plug and stuff towels around the 4" SCAT in the other air inlet. What think
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

You could try flattening the 4 inch scat to fit into the bottom of the cowling. The best way to use these heaters is with an engine cover that has a flap to open in front of a nose intake - air flow bottom to top and out the nose bowl works efficiently.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Narwhal747 wrote:Great, so at those temps how long did you preheat for with the red dragon? an hour? So your 25 pound bottle lasted about 10 hours of heating time would you say?
. I’m recalling a bit over an hour, maybe an hour and a half....ran it until the Aerovoltz battery shut down...10 hours sounds about right before refilling the bottle...sure worked well!


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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

m_moyle wrote:
Narwhal747 wrote:Great, so at those temps how long did you preheat for with the red dragon? an hour? So your 25 pound bottle lasted about 10 hours of heating time would you say?
. I’m recalling a bit over an hour, maybe an hour and a half....ran it until the Aerovoltz battery shut down...10 hours sounds about right before refilling the bottle...sure worked well!


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Thanks! Flying in Willow sounds fun, only flown past it a few times back and forth to Talkeetna so far. I ordered a 10 lb propane bottle from wal-mart because it seemed like it'd be small enough to haul as cargo if we ever flew to a remote spot in winter and needed to carry the red dragon Stores here only seemed to have the 25 lb or tiny 5lb bottles in stock. Luckily it has been about 40 in Anchorage most days so far this fall!!
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

Was there any problem at those temps keeping the propane bottle from freezing?
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

I’ve used a Dragon to pre heat with no problems down to ~ -30 F. On my large propane tank at my first house in FAI, it had to get below -50 before the propane refused to gasify. Helps if you can keep the tank sorta warm prior to pre heat in any case.

And, yes, I know what the “official” information says.

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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

mtv wrote:I’ve used a Dragon to pre heat with no problems down to ~ -30 F. On my large propane tank at my first house in FAI, it had to get below -50 before the propane refused to gasify. Helps if you can keep the tank sorta warm prior to pre heat in any case.

And, yes, I know what the “official” information says.

MTV


I've fried a turkey outside (using propane) at -35. No issues with the gas flow.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

CamTom12 wrote:
mtv wrote:I’ve used a Dragon to pre heat with no problems down to ~ -30 F. On my large propane tank at my first house in FAI, it had to get below -50 before the propane refused to gasify. Helps if you can keep the tank sorta warm prior to pre heat in any case.

And, yes, I know what the “official” information says.

MTV


I've fried a turkey outside (using propane) at -35. No issues with the gas flow.
You guys must have better propane... usually around -35C it gets pretty poor up here. Used to use a tiger torch a lot when I ran a water truck for freezing winter access in. About half the propane went to heating the 25lb tank so it would flow and other half went to thawing valves. Granted a tiger torch tanks a lot of flow, so that might have something to do with it. My bbq works well at -30C but doesn't require nearly the flow that the torch does...
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

If the battery dies a Red Dragon fan will stop blowing but the flame will keep burning. this will get the unit hot enough to start melting parts and burning the scat hose. :oops: So keep an eye on the unit if you are using a smaller battery.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

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Last edited by glacier on Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

DENNY wrote:If the battery dies a Red Dragon fan will stop blowing but the flame will keep burning. this will get the unit hot enough to start melting parts and burning the scat hose. :oops: So keep an eye on the unit if you are using a smaller battery.
DENNY


ANY combustion heater should demand your constant attention while heating.

MTV
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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

glacier wrote:Not to burst anybody's bubble, but I did not find the red dragon to be all that great. I used one for a few years when I was getting started, the plane came with one when I bought it.

Anything much below about -20F involved using the heater directly on the propane tank to get pressure up. Preheat the heater, great fun.

The adjustable regulator is nice, but you are always having to readjust to compensate for lowering tank pressure as the tank cools off from it's own evaporation cooling and/or just being in the cold. This mean lots of fussing to try and keep the output at a reasonable and effective level.

Even more fundamentally, the fan and relatively small diameter duct and scat tube don't move enough air for the amount of heat involved, which means the air temp is hot. Hot enough to melt things. One example is the liner in control cables. I did not do that personally but was with someone who did, he could not move his mixture cable after pre heating in a remote location.

As the battery gets drained and the voltage goes down, the fan goes slower and the airflow decreases, which means the output air temp goes up, unless you adjust the regulator to reduce the flame.

I eventually switched to a larger propane heater that moved much more air. Larger diameter burner and ducting. Bigger fan. Same BTU rating, just more air. Much nicer, but it requires 120 V AC power. And if you have AC, then just use an electric heater. So this option was nice if I did not plan ahead and needed to preheat relativey quickly. I haven't used this heater in years now, it is just easier to plan ahead and plug in an electric heater.

If I am remote and away from power, I mostly use a Honda 2kw and a hairdryer. Its the same weight/bulk as a red dragon plus battery plus propane tank. Winterizing the Honda takes a little bit of research but its easy they'll run in weather as cold as anyone wants to fly, down to -40. The hairdryer gets it done pretty quick, and maxes out the Honda's continuous output rating.

As much fuss and babysitting as the red dragon takes, I'd rather use a Northern Companion MSR stove for a lightweight remote no power deal. I've used them at -30F and -40F, cold enough that the puddle of white gas or av gas is hard to light in the primer cup when getting it started. It sucks and so does the whole process from there on forward, but to me it sucks less than using the red dragon in the same conditions. And I have more confidence in the whole process eventually resulting in a running aircraft engine. No battery to die, no propane tank that might not put out much pressure in the cold.


Not bursting any bubbles here, I totally agree with you that the Dragon sucks. I too used one for a couple seasons when I first moved north. Then discovered Whamo catalytic sand never looked back.

Now, I have a Northern Companion if stuck out, but engine mounted Tanis or Reiff gets it done mostly.

Of course, now I am in a heated hangar..... 8)

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Re: Red Dragon Pre-heater

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