Backcountry Pilot • Running pump gas

Running pump gas

Nothing happens without it. Discuss fuel locations, quality, alternatives, and anything else related to this critical resource.
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Re: Running pump gas

I just thought of something. Out in western South Dakota they do have 85 octane gas(no E in front) since elevation is high enough that the lower octane is OK. My speel about E85 might have been wasted typing.
Last edited by 180Marty on Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
180Marty offline
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Re: Running pump gas

I feel like we need our own version of Godwin's Law, but in regard to ethanol in fuel discussions.
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Re: Running pump gas

jomac wrote:YA...i get all that...let me just say after buying a SNEW motor or 2 that i run the absolute best fuel i can get my paws on...i think clean auto gas is ok in the smaller motors ...but not sure why i would run it in anything over a 360 just to save a few bucks...but, if u like running them super hard all the time and etc and maybe u dont have to pay for the motor out front, do what works i guess...here in idaho i seem to fly over so much desolate ruff stuff, and quite a bit of nite ops...i want less chances of a problem related to fuel...just some thoughts...i would treat that motor like your life depended on it...cuz...it does....! safe travels my friends....

So does this mean you prefer avgas?
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Re: Running pump gas

Everyone like me and had to look up Godwins law.
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Re: Running pump gas

steve wrote:Everyone like me and had to look up Godwins law.

x2
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Re: Running pump gas

for sure prefer avgas...not that everyone has to tho....i know of 2 other people that have the same motor as me,although not turbo'd and run nonethanol car gas and seem to be doing ok....so like i said whatever works is guess....!
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Re: Running pump gas

Everyone like me and had to look up Godwins law.

x3
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Re: Running pump gas

I'm not in the petroleum industry (aka the "awl bidness"), still not sure what "drip gas" is-- lower-than-87 octane gasoline as byproduct of natural gas?
Not sure what the OP meant by "pump gas" either-- just plain old mogas?
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Re: Running pump gas

Here are some highlights Hotrod. Steve Pierce on Supercub hates ethanol and mentioned drip gas figuring I was clueless. Little did he know. Ha!!!!
Drip gas, so named because it can be drawn off the bottom of small chambers (called drips) sometimes installed in pipelines from gas wells, is another name for natural-gas condensate, a naturally occurring form of gasoline obtained as a byproduct of natural gas extraction. It is also known as "condensate", "natural gasoline", "casing head gas", "raw gas", "white gas" and "liquid gold".[10][11] Drip gas is defined in the United States Code of Federal Regulations as consisting of butane, pentane, and hexane hydrocarbons. Within set ranges of distillation, drip gas may be extracted and used to denature fuel alcohol.[12] Drip gas is also used as a cleaner and solvent as well as a lantern and stove fuel.

Natural-gas condensate is a low-density mixture of hydrocarbon liquids that are present as gaseous components in the raw natural gas produced from many natural gas fields. It condenses out of the raw gas if the temperature is reduced to below the hydrocarbon dew point temperature of the raw gas.

The natural gas condensate is also referred to as simply condensate, or gas condensate, or sometimes natural gasoline because it contains hydrocarbons within the gasoline boiling range. Raw natural gas may come from any one of three types of gas wells:[1][2]

Crude oil wells—Raw natural gas that comes from crude oil wells is called associated gas. This gas can exist separate from the crude oil in the underground formation, or dissolved in the crude oil. Condensate produced from oil wells is often referred to as lease condensate.[3]

Dry gas wells—These wells typically produce only raw natural gas that does not contain any hydrocarbon liquids. Such gas is called non-associated gas. Condensate from dry gas is extracted at gas processing plants and, hence, is often referred to as plant condensate.[3]

Condensate wells—These wells produce raw natural gas along with natural gas liquid. Such gas is also called associated gas and often referred to as wet gas.

There are many condensate sources worldwide and each has its own unique gas condensate composition. However, in general, gas condensate has a specific gravity ranging from 0.5 to 0.8, and is composed of hydrocarbons such as propane, butane, pentane, hexane, etc. Natural gas compounds with more carbon atoms (e.g. pentane, or blends of butane, pentane and other hydrocarbons with additional carbon atoms) exist as liquids at ambient temperatures.

There are literally hundreds of different equipment configurations for the processing required to separate natural gas condensate from a raw natural gas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-gas_condensate
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Re: Running pump gas

PAMR MX wrote:
Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
PAMR MX wrote: Ethanol is not legal on the stc for auto fuel BUT it works absolutely fine.

A buddy went down when the E-10 he was running swelled the rubber fuel lines shut.

I run E-10 just fine, but I have SAE spec fuel lines and a Rotax engine that has the appropriate stuff in the fuel pump / carb.


So what kind of fuel line was it??

He told me, but it was several years ago. Something "aviation grade"...
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Re: Running pump gas

FYI - I was in a pinch and ran AvGas right before the annual and still have it in the tanks... had another cylinder at 10 psi for compression. Every single time I run AvGas I have this problem vs MoGas.
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Re: Running pump gas

steve wrote:Everyone like me and had to look up Godwins law.

x4
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Re: Running pump gas

FWIW, I have learned to not trust fuel sources in regards to ethanol. Always test for ethanol, even if they advertise the fuel is ethanol free.

My home airport advertises ethanol free mogas, it has over 10% ethanol in it.
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Re: Running pump gas

An airport selling ethanol free mogas with actually ethanol in it would be looking for one hell of a lawsuit in my opinion.

Biggest problem with the varying quality/additives of pump gas besides just rubber lines/rubber carb parts would be bladder deterioration. Is it worth drying out your bladders to save a few bucks? No bladder manufacturer recommends using anything but avgas. I guess if you fly alot, getting 15 years instead of 30 out of a set of bladders would be ok. Leaving Sunday flyers sitting on the ramp with bladdders full of excessive toluene/ ethanol for months at a time, not so good. Plus ethanol gas turns to crap very fast. Very little storage life.
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Re: Running pump gas

Mark, you need to do more research. Here is what Eagle Fuel cells says about their nitrile rubber bladders----I am using one right now.
That's why mechanics LOVE our tanks! Once installed, the cell is externally durable, internally impermeable, resistant to ozone damage and shrinkage and is compatible with all aviation and Pump Gas fuels, oils, and most corrosive fluids.
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Re: Running pump gas

As far as the engine is concerned, low compression engines run better on mogas than 100LL. The difference between 100 and 80 octane is rate of burn; on most low compression engines the energy you've paid for in 100LL is going out the exhaust pipe. For those of you that reload, it's like contrasting Red Dot with Blue Dot smokeless powders and the weight of charge they're designed to propel. The difference is burn rate and gas pressures. 100LL will also lead-foul your valves in an engine designed for 80 octane fuel over time.

As far as alchohol is concerned, I would only use it in a no-kidding emergency in an aircraft or engine not designed to use it. I'll have to find a carburetor picture that came off of a buggy engine using ethanol mogas; turned the inside of the carb green & fuzzy from corrosion. Not to mention seal compatibility, as others have stated. Ethanol does nothing good in an engine and contains less energy than straight gasoline.
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Re: Running pump gas

Another concern is ethanol's hydroscopic tendencies.
Nope, that's not a typo (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygroscopy):

"Hygroscopy is the phenomenon of attracting and holding water molecules from the surrounding environment, which is usually at normal or room temperature. This is achieved through either absorption or adsorption with the absorbing or adsorbing substance becoming physically changed somewhat. This could be an increase in volume, boiling point, viscosity, or other physical characteristic or property of the substance, as water molecules can become suspended between the substance's molecules in the process."
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Re: Running pump gas

That's funny about the Eagle statement. I just purchased one of their bladders in December and installed it. Paper work that came with the bladder clearly stated they don't recommend automotive fuel use in their bladders.
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Re: Running pump gas

Well, my wife just informed me that I've been averaging $1000 per week in avgas since my checkride. And the weather has been crappy half the time.

I'll be looking into options. I've heard the low compression PPonk is very well suited to mogas but Steve got fed up with the paperwork and abandoned the STC application after more than 600 hours of testing.
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Re: Running pump gas

I'll have to find a carburetor picture that came off of a buggy engine using ethanol mogas; turned the inside of the carb green & fuzzy from corrosion.

A MA 4-5 Marvel must be made of different material since that hasn't happened in over 10 years.
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